Heartland

Hi! I'm new here, but didn't see much in a search.

I'm curious about the current state of TSOM lighting - I know in '98 it was that madman Nige, but I've been watching 2017 footage and it looks like things have changed.

It looks like they've got a fairly standard touring floor package at this point : a bunch of beam lights along the front of the stage and some at the back, and then a few larger wash lights behind them as well.

Some dates they've made an effort to elevate some of the floor package (put 'em on road cases, milk boxes, whatever), some dates they just toss 'em on the ground, and some dates they seem to be supplementing an existing venue rig.

The operation is also kind of all over the place, from the footage I've seen. It's almost like there are three separate operators cycling through.
1) : (ex: More, Roundhouse Sept 2) Competent, workmanlike, doesn't take any risks but puts on a decent show. Standard looks for verse/chorus, not much extra seasoning. Not sure why the bumps are out of time with the music when there's a drum machine onstage, but hey, probably felt fine live.

2) (ex: Ribbons, Paradiso Sept 27) Appears to be starting from a preprogrammed show, and busking over the top - sometimes the results are better than others. Nice strobe/blinder hits, but sometimes gets too busy and 'crossed up' (the cobalt red/cobalt blue/purple crashing bits are late and feel rushed). Room to improve but seems to care about integrating with the music. "Something Fast", same date - looks great for the most part, but the "left and right" bits with the movers just feel cheesy.

3) (ex: Rock and a Hard Place, Roundhouse Sept 1) Ouch. Hit some buttons and see what flashes.

So what's happening? Is it just a touring package with local operators? Are they dragging a lampie around with them? Spill the details! If they own/have rented lights, they must've gotten a console with them. Who did the initial programming?

(The show they played on a boat, where they mostly used the existing lighting package? looked great from what i saw).

Hello jim-bob & welcome to the forum.
Pretty sure someone round here knows.

Welcome jim-bob ... ... all I can say is that I really liked the mirrors used for the recent tour. That was a good idea and created some wonderful effects .... ...

Being645 wrote:Welcome jim-bob ... ... all I can say is that I really liked the mirrors used for the recent tour. That was a good idea and created some wonderful effects .... ...

The mirrors are a nice gag! I'd like to see them used more effectively, but..

I worry that the current state of the lighting is much like a lot of the current state of the sisters: could be bigger, should be bigger, but the budget just isn't there anymore. Nobody's going to pay for AE to drag three trucks of gear around in 2018, unfortunately, and all the Steinman-equivalent lighting designers probably cost considerably more than he'd like to spend these days.

I'd love to hear from someone that knows something..

This is an interesting question, but first thing that comes to my mind from the new videos i've seen is that they need to use MORE SMOKE as they did often before. Lots of it! Yeah, sometimes people complained about it, but for me it's an important element that's poorly utilised these days.

itnAklipse wrote:This is an interesting question, but first thing that comes to my mind from the new videos i've seen is that they need to use MORE SMOKE as they did often before. Lots of it! Yeah, sometimes people complained about it, but for me it's an important element that's poorly utilised these days.

Agreed - in '98 Nige had a half dozen apiece of foggers and hazers on that tiny Maritime stage. A whole lot of smoke and flashing lights definitely helps a lot when the band isn't doing anything especially visually interesting.

jim-bob wrote:
The mirrors are a nice gag! I'd like to see them used more effectively, but..

I worry that the current state of the lighting is much like a lot of the current state of the sisters: could be bigger, should be bigger, but the budget just isn't there anymore. Nobody's going to pay for AE to drag three trucks of gear around in 2018, unfortunately, and all the Steinman-equivalent lighting designers probab

They won't haul lights around. They would typically get the venue tech specs & let the venue know what they need focused where & with which gels.
They may bring their own gobos for spots but they don't appear to be using any currently.

Pista wrote: They won't haul lights around. They would typically get the venue tech specs & let the venue know what they need focused where & with which gels.
They may bring their own gobos for spots but they don't appear to be using any currently.

With the exception of the 'boat' gig, the fixture types appear to be the same in every clip I watched in the "2017 Highlights" reel.

The band simply providing a spec to the venue would explain the difference in stage plots from venue to venue - some cared enough to give him a few different levels of upstage lights, most just threw 'em all on the floor.

With this current approach, I don't think gels or gobos are an issue - appears to be all movers, mostly beam fixtures.

This has me even more confused - why would you send a detailed spec if you're not carrying the programming to take advantage of it?

jim-bob wrote: With the exception of the 'boat' gig, the fixture types appear to be the same in every clip I watched in the "2017 Highlights" reel.

The band simply providing a spec to the venue would explain the difference in stage plots from venue to venue - some cared enough to give him a few different levels of upstage lights, most just threw 'em all on the floor.

With this current approach, I don't think gels or gobos are an issue - appears to be all movers, mostly beam fixtures.

This has me even more confused - why would you send a detailed spec if you're not carrying the programming to take advantage of it?

They more than likely take their own board with all the presets stored. I've worked LX boards before & they're not all huge, so quite portable. But even then, if you're playing a venue with a house board that you can just plug the programming into, that's one less thing to lug about.
In my old stage management days I would ask for the theatre specs so I'd know what I had to work with & anything extra I would have to hire myself. But I would send a plan of what I wanted & they'd often find a solution.
At the Budapest show there were (I think) 2 trucks parked next to the ship. I imagine they were enough for both The Sisters' & The Membranes' gear but with the ship being a smaller space they probably didn't need to unpack some of the rig they had at bigger venues.

Pista wrote: They more than likely take their own board with all the presets stored. I've worked LX boards before & they're not all huge, so quite portable. But even then, if you're playing a venue with a house board that you can just plug the programming into, that's one less thing to lug about.
In my old stage management days I would ask for the theatre specs so I'd know what I had to work with & anything extra I would have to hire myself. But I would send a plan of what I wanted & they'd often find a solution.
At the Budapest show there were (I think) 2 trucks parked next to the ship. I imagine they were enough for both The Sisters' & The Membranes' gear but with the ship being a smaller space they probably didn't need to unpack some of the rig they had at bigger venues.

I could definitely see them just carrying an LD/console and having the vendor supply the rig, but.. nothing I'm seeing on video bears that out. Everything i've seen so far looks like "we started loading in around noon, got the rig up and running by 3, and hit the pub by 5." Nothing I've seen looks more intricate than anything you'd get with a rushed afternoon of programming, so either they're slamming the show in from scratch on every date, they're rotating through LDs, or.. nobody cares all that much. Not sure what the answer is, but I wish it was better.

Whatever the explanation is, there's also the question of time/cost-efficiency. The Sisters/Eldritch give always a good performance, in my opinion, but something like lighting...it's not artistically 100% satisfactory but the reality of it is they wouldn't be making more money if it was perfect, more people would not go see them, unfortunately. So, how much time and effort should Eldritch invest in it for the benefit of an already to an extent unappreciative audience?

The inconsistency is another question, of course.

jim-bob wrote: I could definitely see them just carrying an LD/console and having the vendor supply the rig, but.. nothing I'm seeing on video bears that out. Everything i've seen so far looks like "we started loading in around noon, got the rig up and running by 3, and hit the pub by 5." Nothing I've seen looks more intricate than anything you'd get with a rushed afternoon of programming, so either they're slamming the show in from scratch on every date, they're rotating through LDs, or.. nobody cares all that much. Not sure what the answer is, but I wish it was better.

I don't think you're far off. Most decent venues will have the gear to support the needs of the bands that play there so they don't need to cart it all over Europe. & those lamps are pretty prone to breaking, so they don't travel well.
They'd still need to focus & plot them when they get there & when you're touring a fairly standard set list that's not a massive amount of work. So pub by 5 is totally do-able.

itnAklipse wrote:Whatever the explanation is, there's also the question of time/cost-efficiency. The Sisters/Eldritch give always a good performance, in my opinion, but something like lighting...it's not artistically 100% satisfactory but the reality of it is they wouldn't be making more money if it was perfect, more people would not go see them, unfortunately. So, how much time and effort should Eldritch invest in it for the benefit of an already to an extent unappreciative audience?

I think this is exactly it, and is symptomatic of something bigger - they've transitioned from a rock'n'roll juggernaut to a club act. They used to go all out, and now it's a metered effort. They lost the live bassist a while back, the guitar lines get steadily less intricate, and we all know about the voice..

I don't know what the answer is - I suppose things will just slowly grind to a halt until playing live just isn't worth the time or effort anymore or perhaps they'll put out The New Album On The New Label and start touring stadiums..

Pista wrote:I don't think you're far off. Most decent venues will have the gear to support the needs of the bands that play there so they don't need to cart it all over Europe. & those lamps are pretty prone to breaking, so they don't travel well.
They'd still need to focus & plot them when they get there & when you're touring a fairly standard set list that's not a massive amount of work. So pub by 5 is totally do-able.

My complaint, i suppose, is that nobody seems willing to do the minimum to keep the lightshow up to snuff. You'd think there'd be someone out there willing to handle the sisters as a labor of love if nothing else..

itnAklipse wrote:Whatever the explanation is, there's also the question of time/cost-efficiency. The Sisters/Eldritch give always a good performance, in my opinion, but something like lighting...it's not artistically 100% satisfactory but the reality of it is they wouldn't be making more money if it was perfect, more people would not go see them, unfortunately. So, how much time and effort should Eldritch invest in it for the benefit of an already to an extent unappreciative audience?

The inconsistency is another question, of course.

There are very few times that I agree with itnAklipse, but this is one of those rare moments.

jim-bob wrote:I think this is exactly it, and is symptomatic of something bigger - they've transitioned from a rock'n'roll juggernaut to a club act. They used to go all out, and now it's a metered effort. They lost the live bassist a while back, the guitar lines get steadily less intricate, and we all know about the voice..

Well, at this point i must disagree. Like i said, in my opinion they always give a good performance and i have no complaints about His Master's Voice (great classical vinyls, too...) so in that regard i for one don't know what you suggest everybody knows.

You'd think there'd be someone out there willing to handle the sisters as a labor of love if nothing else..

Maybe volunteers haven't been knocking at the door? Wanna try? Then again, if you go there harking on about recently lost bassists and stadiums and record deals, i'm not sure he'd have you...and i'm not sure you'd be the one to improve things, either, Jim-bo.

lazarus corporation wrote:There are very few times that I agree with itnAklipse, but this is one of those rare moments.

No doubt that is to your greater glory!

itnAklipse wrote: Maybe volunteers haven't been knocking at the door? Wanna try? Then again, if you go there harking on about recently lost bassists and stadiums and record deals, i'm not sure he'd have you...and i'm not sure you'd be the one to improve things, either, Jim-bo.

Not really my scene - I'm not a rock'n'roll touring guy, although i wouldn't be against taking on a club date if they ever came through my town. I'd like to see Nige behind the board again, honestly.

I suspect AE has a much healthier grasp on where he stands relative to where he used to than you do, so I can't see him being too fussed about anything I've said. If he is, well, that's probably not a dude I'd enjoy working with.

jim-bob wrote:I suspect AE has a much healthier grasp on where he stands relative to where he used to than you do, so I can't see him being too fussed about anything I've said.

I think that itnAklipse's grasp on AE's current status is actually fairly accurate (and honestly, as I said before, I think this is the only time I've ever agreed with itnAklipse on anything ever, so I think I'm being fairly objective here) - spending more money on fancy lighting isn't going to bring in more punters, it would just mean he has less money to pay himself, and Chris & Ben, and the assorted tour crew. Which would be kinda crappy.

People who enjoy the gigs will enjoy them anyway without a multi-thousand $$$ light show, and people who don't aren't going to change their minds (or start coming to them) because of a better lighting set-up.

But I do agree that AE isn't fussed about what you said (or about what itnAklipse said, or about what i said).

lazarus corporation wrote:But I do agree that AE isn't fussed about what you said (or about what itnAklipse said, or about what i said).

Rhetorical question to make a point: why should HE be? (Sorry, the capitalization is a Catholic reference, for my sins!)

lazarus corporation wrote: I think that itnAklipse's grasp on AE's current status is actually fairly accurate (and honestly, as I said before, I think this is the only time I've ever agreed with itnAklipse on anything ever, so I think I'm being fairly objective here) - spending more money on fancy lighting isn't going to bring in more punters, it would just mean he has less money to pay himself, and Chris & Ben, and the assorted tour crew. Which would be kinda crappy.

People who enjoy the gigs will enjoy them anyway without a multi-thousand $$$ light show, and people who don't aren't going to change their minds (or start coming to them) because of a better lighting set-up.

But I do agree that AE isn't fussed about what you said (or about what itnAklipse said, or about what i said).

I don't think they need a multi-thousand $$$ light show, per se - i just wish they'd put some effort into the existing one. Having the venue/promoter provide the package is a totally valid option (hell, Martin did it for Daft Punk on their massive breakthrough tour back in 07 or whatever), they just need to put a little effort into the programming.

That 2017 Highlights youtube had 30 songs, which is a decent-sized setlist to keep on top of, but I would assume the songs are fairly static - no jazz excursions, no drum solos, no hardcore 30s blasts or 30-minute extended dub sessions.. Get a talented LD some tapes of recent shows/rehearsals, set them up with a rolling tray/mirror&razorblade/keg as appropriate, give them the latest rider, and have them sit down with a previsualization system and a console for a few days. They'd come out the other side for programming for the vast majority of their set, and could even have someone not as pricey actually pounding buttons onsite. Or heck, they could just fire cues from the Dok, but I think that would be very very un-Stooges and would probably rub Himself the wrong way.

Now, I have no idea what kind of budget they're working with, but with light boards these days they could recycle that show for quite a while.

itnAklipse wrote:

lazarus corporation wrote:But I do agree that AE isn't fussed about what you said (or about what itnAklipse said, or about what i said).

Rhetorical question to make a point: why should HE be? (Sorry, the capitalization is a Catholic reference, for my sins!)

He shouldn't be even slightly - that was my point.

Pista wrote:

jim-bob wrote: I could definitely see them just carrying an LD/console and having the vendor supply the rig, but.. nothing I'm seeing on video bears that out. Everything i've seen so far looks like "we started loading in around noon, got the rig up and running by 3, and hit the pub by 5." Nothing I've seen looks more intricate than anything you'd get with a rushed afternoon of programming, so either they're slamming the show in from scratch on every date, they're rotating through LDs, or.. nobody cares all that much. Not sure what the answer is, but I wish it was better.

I don't think you're far off. Most decent venues will have the gear to support the needs of the bands that play there so they don't need to cart it all over Europe. & those lamps are pretty prone to breaking, so they don't travel well.
They'd still need to focus & plot them when they get there & when you're touring a fairly standard set list that's not a massive amount of work. So pub by 5 is totally do-able.

Pub by 5.0!!! Davy is with us by 3.0 and by then the smoke alarms will have gone off. Hence less smoke and more mirrors