Heartland

Thanks to streaming sites, musicians, especially smaller, less well known bands, are suffering & may soon have to simply jack it in completely.
Here's a really good thread from Tom Gray to explain what the issue is.
& just look at what an artist makes per stream


Typically, smaller acts make most of their money from playing gigs & selling merch. But, given the situation we are in right now, that's become much harder to do & so puts their futures at huge risk.
The Musician's Union has set up a petition to try to get this changed

I'm not telling anyone to sign it, but please do if you want to. Also, please spread this message as far and wide as you can & use the hash tags #brokenrecord & #keepmusicalive.

Parliamentary enquiry on this is currently underway



The whole thing about spotify having a "tip jar" is repugnant.

I know it's a terrible attitude but I don't think that the genie can be put back in the bottle. Thanks to mp3 sharing (both licit and illicit) the public has been trained to expect music to be free. I'm aware that fractions of a cent per stream is piss-poor but it's a hell of a lot better than the flat fuck-all that an artist or band gets from torrent sites. Making money from selling recorded music is dead, and has been for maybe a couple of decades now.

As you say, it's live performances and merch that are the real money these days, but yeah, obviously, live music isn't really happening right now. I think it behooves us as music fans to be the fans we want to see. Support your local music scene. Buy stuff directly from bands. That sort of carry-on.

That’s very interesting stats, particularly the YouTube one right at the bottom. Been wondering that lately. What this doesn’t state is how purchased music (amazon, iTunes, distrokid, cdbaby, bandcamp etc) figure into the equation. This only looks at streaming.

Call me old fashion but I don’t subscribe to any streaming service, but I do listen to some music on the toobs. I prefer to buy my music outright. I wonder what proportion of consumers do that these days. I imagine it’s definitly shifted toward streaming, but has streaming overtaken sales completely.

Also, recorded music has never made artists much money. Record companies and publishers take the bulk of those profits and live performance and merch has always been where artists make their living. It’s just gotten to such a ridiculous extreme. s**t state of affairs

Also, worth pointing out that Spotify is owned by Facebook, who are in the data mining business, not the music business. Spotify is just another thinly veiled vehicle to build up their profile of you. They have no interest in a business model that supports or enriched both parties

I thought I would try to work out a comparison with Radio airplay.

Raw figures from here Radio 1 has 8.79 million listeners a week with an average listening time of 6.3 hours a week. If my maths is correct on average there are about 330000 people listening to Radio 1 at any one time

According to this they pay about £11 per minute in PRS royalties.

Let's say (a generous sounding) £45 per song, works out at £0.00014 per person per song (roughly equivalent to "per stream")

Ouch. And what percentage of that actually goes to the artist

markfiend wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 17:59
Let's say (a generous sounding) £45 per song, works out at £0.00014 per person per song (roughly equivalent to "per stream")

Good point.
Big difference there is that a much bigger chunk of those royalties get to the artist & not just spread about among the big music labels regardless of whatever else is played on the radio. Plus, it's a promotional tool more than anything else.
It's a better deal than the streaming models by far where the service takes its cut, then hands the lion's share of what's left to the big music labels who then take their cut & (I only learned this today), they often factor in between 10 & 25% for "breakages" which is an archaic hangover from days when physical product was de rigueur & sometimes would get damaged in transit/ manufacture etc. & then spread what's left among the all artists that they stream.
Tom Gray did an exercise & worked out the the B**tles, who were the biggest band on the planet in their day, would have been in debt to their label if they had relied on a streaming model & were unable to play concerts.
Fact is, if you listen to a stream of, say, The Sisters, a chunk of the money you pay (should you pay a subscription) for that stream will go to Taylor Swift or Justin Beaver or someone else you don't actually listen to.
The tech itself isn't a problem. In fact it's a great concept given the number of mobile devices globally. It's the model that's unfair.

So, after all, if i'm avoiding spitify, tidahl, it means i'm good, right?

Bartek wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 19:19 So, after all, if i'm avoiding spitify, tidahl, it means i'm good, right?

This is another dilemma.
No streams at all means no revenue at all.
Artists are scrabbling to eek a living any way they can & if they don't utilise a streaming platform they get nothing whatsoever. At least if they do they make enough to buy a cup of coffee every few days or so.
Like Mark said, the best thing you can do to support them is to buy their product, merch, whatever.
One really good way is Bandcamp. But wait until the first Friday of each month when Bandcamp waive their fees & the artist gets every penny.

I think Mark has hit the nail on the head here. Basically the record industry messed up by price-gouging on CDs back in the 80s and 90s, then messed up again by failing to respond to changes in listening habits and models, and that's a whole load of cats that ain't going back into their bags.

Where we're at today is not actually a bad model. It's not perfect but it could be a whole lot worse. Vinyl has re-emerged as the premium, boutique format, and it's clear that there will always be a market for that. Live performances and merch, it seems to me, probably get a higher proportion of sales to the band than music sales do. Recording is cheap and easy. Promotion online is cheap and easy. Remind me again why we actually need record companies?

Pista wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 19:56

Bartek wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 19:19 So, after all, if i'm avoiding spitify, tidahl, it means i'm good, right?

This is another dilemma.
No streams at all means no revenue at all.
Artists are scrabbling to eek a living any way they can & if they don't utilise a streaming platform they get nothing whatsoever. At least if they do they make enough to buy a cup of coffee every few days or so.
Like Mark said, the best thing you can do to support them is to buy their product, merch, whatever.
One really good way is Bandcamp. But wait until the first Friday of each month when Bandcamp waive their fees & the artist gets every penny.

Well, how come back in the days that indie labels (such as Merciful Release) emerged?
Maybe it's just high time for some indie streaming platform?

Pista wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 18:27 snip

Tom Gray did an exercise & worked out the the B**tles, who were the biggest band on the planet in their day, would have been in debt to their label if they had relied on a streaming model & were unable to play concerts.

/snip

Is that two bands now asterixed? The big-nosed guy in the hat will be happy with the company he keeps.

No not Obelix

Being645 wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 22:54

Pista wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 19:56

Bartek wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 19:19 So, after all, if i'm avoiding spitify, tidahl, it means i'm good, right?

This is another dilemma.
No streams at all means no revenue at all.
Artists are scrabbling to eek a living any way they can & if they don't utilise a streaming platform they get nothing whatsoever. At least if they do they make enough to buy a cup of coffee every few days or so.
Like Mark said, the best thing you can do to support them is to buy their product, merch, whatever.
One really good way is Bandcamp. But wait until the first Friday of each month when Bandcamp waive their fees & the artist gets every penny.

Well, how come back in the days that indie labels (such as Merciful Release) emerged?
Maybe it's just high time for some indie streaming platform?

Actually it's not that cheap, some front and back end of webstie needs to written or bought, servers, and other hardware, of course now there is cloud technology that makes it a bit more affordable, while there's no need to buy all stacks and racks, but still some upfront investments are quite big. And i haven't mention anything about advertisement - essential part to meet level o fbreak even, at least; i mean, of course some indie/alternative (e-)press would endores and cheer such project, but it wouldn't not be enough, i'm affraid.

Well, you used to be able to get a pile of your 7"s printed for £500

You can't even get a simple static website for £500 these days, never mind set up your own streaming service!

You're looking at millions to do that, as well as a whole host of technical expertise way beyond the skillset of most folks.

Another price comparison: Making a few ass-umptions

Floodland in 1987 cost me £7.99 on vinyl IIRC. Standard record company contract the Sisters would have got 80p of that; so 10p per song.

At the spotify rate of £0.00327 I paid for about 30 listens. Reckon I've probably heard Floodland a few more than that.

Bartek wrote: ↑26 Nov 2020, 09:26

Being645 wrote: ↑25 Nov 2020, 22:54 Well, how come back in the days that indie labels (such as Merciful Release) emerged?
Maybe it's just high time for some indie streaming platform?

Actually it's not that cheap, some front and back end of webstie needs to written or bought, servers, and other hardware, of course now there is cloud technology that makes it a bit more affordable, while there's no need to buy all stacks and racks, but still some upfront investments are quite big. And i haven't mention anything about advertisement - essential part to meet level o fbreak even, at least; i mean, of course some indie/alternative (e-)press would endores and cheer such project, but it wouldn't not be enough, i'm affraid.

Quiff Boy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2020, 10:17 Well, you used to be able to get a pile of your 7"s printed for £500

You can't even get a simple static website for £500 these days, never mind set up your own streaming service!

You're looking at millions to do that, as well as a whole host of technical expertise way beyond the skillset of most folks.

So the days of digital innovations are over?
No more nerds in some garage inventing new means and platforms? Somehow I can't imagine that ... ...
Well, at least, it clearly won't be me to do it ... ...

they don't invent - they code, mainly using other people's platforms, systems and frameworks

data isnt free - any streaming would have to be done from somewhere, eg an amazon datacentre, and it costs by the megabyte

it's a different world

mini tech empires are built on the infrastructure of a small number of tech giants, and they're expensive

even bandcamp will have huge fees for their hosting and data infrastructure

That sounds terrible. I wasn't that much aware that the virtual world is fully occupied and cantoned already
and that they are now diggin' up, exploring and trying to get full control over our dreams ...
as every coloniser does with other peoples' resources ... and nothing, really nothing, has ever changed ... * shiver ...
... ...

It's not even like collonisation, but it take much, much money. (Not to mention anything about GAFAM).

In IT it's about finding the best solution by using proper tools; like in blacksmithing one can forge tool but first it needs to have some other tools, in IT you buy or use said framework or other apps that will make it simpler, faster, stable and more predictable. One can write app from the ground (using IDE wrote/developed by other), but will take a lots of time and needs hudge knowledge and skills.

This is an illustration of the problem:

Bandcamp is great, I recommend supporting artists you like on that platform - if you can find them. Which is the problem with Bandcamp - there is a load of dross on there to sort through looking for the gems.

alanm wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 12:26 Which is the problem with Bandcamp - there is a load of dross on there to sort through looking for the gems.

So, it's today's Peel show then.

Swinnow wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 13:22 So, it's today's Peel show then.

Well they've explicitly gone with a "corner record store / jumble sale" user experience. There's heaps of semi-organised stuff, you sift through it patiently, maybe you come away with some new cool stuff you didn't expect, etc. Works well for some people.

hah! that's a great analogy. very true...