Heartland

Introduction

To paraphrase Anne Widdecombe,there was something of the night about them.As a tribe,Goths had come a long way from their Scandinavian namesakes,a barbaric horde who settled by the Black Sea circa 180AD and harassed the Romans.Some 1,800 years later,they prefered hanging around Leeds town centre or sipping cider and black in provincial biker pubs:the sect that dare not speak its name,even during the Albert Hall-filling,1980s heyday of Sisters Of Mercy and Siouxsie & The Banshees.
"Goth" was always a cheap insult in the rock press.But,slap and crimpers aside,the music's heady combination of glam,punk and Edgar Allen Poe was powerful,providing higher education for heavy metal and sowing the bad seeds for Marilyn Manson and Trent Reznor,ensuring that rock's taste for the macabre and the minor chord - the Gothic,if you,will - never went out of fashion.

Bauhaus - In The Flat Field(4AD,1980)

Black Sabbath - Paranoid(Vertigo,1970)

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - Tender Prey(Mute,1988)

The Cult - Dreamtime(Beggars Banquet,1984)

The Cure - Pornography(Fiction,1982)

Curve - Doppelganger(Anxious,1992)

Marilyn Manson - Antichrist Superstar(Nothing,1996)

The m*****n - Children(Mercury,1988)

Nine Inch Nails - The Downward Spiral(Nothing,1994)

Siouxsie & The Banshees - Ju Ju(Polydor,1981)

The Sisters Of Mercy - First And Last And Always(Merciful Release,1985)
They said:
It was their funeral.The Sisters Of Mercy split after filling the Albert Hall in 1985:the video was entitled Wake,and this 10-track,drum-machine-led debut(consolidating five years of singles and EPs)became their tombstone.Retaining the name,Andrew Eldritch,Oxford-educated keeper of the flame,went transatlantic,but cash and approval didn't become him.This mordant beast survives as a m*****n statement(if you will)for the genre:pitch-balck,rock-hard,utterly oppressive,shrouded in bollocks.Black!Black!
Best Tracks:Black Planet,Marian,Walk Away
Most Gothic Moment:Eldritch does his Ancient Mariner on Some Kind Of Stranger:"I've heard so many things I've failed to understand"

Richard Wagner - The Best Of Wagner(Naxos,1992)

What do you think about it?

Do you agree?Or do you think there had been some other that genre's albums also worth a mention?

Black Sabbath and Curve

Paddy.

yeah- black sabbath??!!

and i dont think mr cave should really be there either

Id go with Bauhaus, The Cure, and Siouxsie, But i think the other 7 are pushing it somewhat.The Cult might make it with "Love" and the m*****n with "Gods own Medicine" Though......................and of course the Sisters with "Floodland".

I'd add some Rozz Williams era Christian Death too - Catastrophe Ballet maybe?

Black Sabbath??? No way

Marilyn Manson... No. I don't know why people say that this is gothic.

NIN...?? No way. This got nothing of gothic.

And Nick...?? Not a chance. I can say that Nick is Master of writing very dark lyrics, but not gothic.

(By the way... Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds and specially Birthday Party, not to mention Boys Next Door )

And if they put some bands that got nothing to do with gothic, why they don't put also Joy Division, it's more gothic that some of these bands in the list. (my opinion, of course)

I put one more in this list, Corpus Delicti.

WOT NO NEPHILIM???

Scardwel wrote:WOT NO NEPHILIM???

HOW CAN I FORGOT FIELDS???? (stupid girl)

FIELDS OF THE NEPHILIM of course.

Typical, ill informed and lazy music press categorization.

as Snubnoseuk says.....

Paddy.

OI NIN are ace, but I do agree with Mazza, lanky t*at!!

pah.

I would def insert Play Dead's Company Of Justice into that tawdry list and Bauhaus' Mask is far superior to Flat Field. Has no one ever heard Play Dead? damn fine band IMO.

regards
James Blast

mh wrote:I'd add some Rozz Williams era Christian Death too - Catastrophe Ballet maybe?

I'd add Christian Death - everything! Period.

But I think the criteria for making this list was one band/one album.

As for the Cult, the most goth between "Love" and "Dreamtime"... Hmmm, I'd go for "Love".

As for the m*****n, yes, I was surprised they didn't include "God's..." maybe that's because they prefer "Children".

As for "Floodland", well, you know that's highly controversial. Unless we call it goth pop.
In this (new ?) category, I'd add Peter Murphy's "Love Hysteria".

Scardwel wrote:WOT NO NEPHILIM???

Christ! You're right!
And Siouxie, and Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, and so many others I can't remember now. So sorry in advance.

moonchild wrote:Black Sabbath??? No way

Marilyn Manson... No. I don't know why people say that this is gothic.

NIN...?? No way. This got nothing of gothic.

And Nick...?? Not a chance. I can say that Nick is Master of writing very dark lyrics, but not gothic.

(By the way... Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds and specially Birthday Party, not to mention Boys Next Door )

And if they put some bands that got nothing to do with gothic, why they don't put also Joy Division, it's more gothic that some of these bands in the list. (my opinion, of course)

I put one more in this list, Corpus Delicti.

Interesting to see how two people from the same country have two so different opinions about the style, but it's due to the 80/90's gap.

Joy Divion were not even goth, they were pre-goth. Goth wasn't even around.

Corpus Delicti are a copy of Bauhaus. They don't deserve to be in the same list due to lack of originality.

Nick Cave... Another controversial one, I give you that. He's more inclined to alternative, although a very dark kind of alternative.

Black Sabath, the Doors, Led Zepellin - like Joy Division - were the sources were goth music went to drink. That doesn't turn them into goth. Different times, different era, different universe!

Marilyn Manson... and Rammstein. I'd say if goth music did evolve that's what it evolved to. I mean evolution, not imitation. You can imagine how I rate (not) bands like Corpus Delicti, Suspiria and the likes.

Just because I listen to it with a smile, doesn't mean they're good.
Some nights ago I watched an episode of "Buffy the vampire slayer" that was a complete rip off of "Dark City" (the movie). It was entertaining but let's not forget it was a rip off nevertheless. Therefore, it's not art.

I don't listen to NIN so I really can't tell, but yes, maybe that's an evolution of goth music too I particularly dislike.

One last note about Dead Can Dance. Goth or not? Another controversial one. Fact: did influence the entire range of medieval/ambient goth.

I tried to focus on the facts.
Maybe one day we'll meet personally and continue thsi discussion (hopefully without pulling each other's hair ).

dead inside wrote:

mh wrote:I'd add some Rozz Williams era Christian Death too - Catastrophe Ballet maybe?

I'd add Christian Death - everything! Period.

But I think the criteria for making this list was one band/one album.

As for the Cult, the most goth between "Love" and "Dreamtime"... Hmmm, I'd go for "Love".

As for the m*****n, yes, I was surprised they didn't include "God's..." maybe that's because they prefer "Children".

As for "Floodland", well, you know that's highly controversial. Unless we call it goth pop.
In this (new ?) category, I'd add Peter Murphy's "Love Hysteria".

OK, forget about Peter Murphy. What was I thinking?!
Definitely not goth.

Let's add instead "One Second", Paradise Lost. Best goth album of the 90's.
God knows they've tried it for a decade and didn't make it!

dead inside wrote: Let's add instead "One Second", Paradise Lost. Best goth album of the 90's.

yes, it's a great piece (goth or not, don't know and don't care about).
i have seen the band on the stage in '93 (by the way, one video of PL, don't remember which one, was filmed on this Tallinn gig) but until "One Second" i didn't consider Paradise Lost one of the great bands.

I notice the list is also T-O-N free, or are they a bad word in these parts?
If not - October Rust

Red Sunsets wrote:I notice the list is also T-O-N free, or are they a bad word in these parts?
If not - October Rust

I love "October Rust" and "Bloody Kisses" - "World Coming Down" was Pants IMHO - as for the new one - I have no idea as I have not heard it

That said they did have a great "best of" out a few years back - called "The Least Worse Of Type O Negative" - Oh how Ironic

Red Sunsets wrote:I notice the list is also T-O-N free, or are they a bad word in these parts?
If not - October Rust

i prefered Bloody Kisses...

AndyTheGoth wrote:

Red Sunsets wrote:I notice the list is also T-O-N free, or are they a bad word in these parts?
If not - October Rust

I love "October Rust" and "Bloody Kisses" - "World Coming Down" was Pants IMHO - as for the new one - I have no idea as I have not heard it

That said they did have a great "best of" out a few years back - called "The Least Worse Of Type O Negative" - Oh how Ironic

I think October Rust was their best, but the new album does have some great tracks on it. And although the songs tend to be characteristically long, it seems to be a much 'tighter' album on the whole--new producer, maybe?

Type O Negative...

The incarnation of the gothicalism itself taken to every extreme.
The reason why Eldritch hates me.

Need I say more?

dead inside wrote:
Joy Divion were not even goth, they were pre-goth. Goth wasn't even around.

Corpus Delicti are a copy of Bauhaus. They don't deserve to be in the same list due to lack of originality.

DI, i never said that Joy Division was goth. What i wrote was:

"And if they put some bands that got nothing to do with gothic, why they don't put also Joy Division".

And about Corpus Delicti you say it's a copy of Bauhaus and don't deserve to be in the same list. Well, i got to say that i like them and yes i put them in the list and sorry but i don't consider them copy of Bauhaus.

But i dunno why i'm here wasting time if i don't care about the styles of the music.

pikkrong wrote:

dead inside wrote: Let's add instead "One Second", Paradise Lost. Best goth album of the 90's.

yes, it's a great piece (goth or not, don't know and don't care about).
i have seen the band on the stage in '93 (by the way, one video of PL, don't remember which one, was filmed on this Tallinn gig) but until "One Second" i didn't consider Paradise Lost one of the great bands.

Oh yeh, I love that one too. If you've heard the limited CD with "I Despair" on it - what a song!!!