Heartland

Like lots of us, I'd guess, I'm watching the videos of the Sisters touring the US and thinking they just are absolutely on fire.

The new songs are sounding better, more fully formed and just basically more polished. The setlist are great, the band has more energy and seems like a real band. They're playing bigger venues in the US than they do in Europe, and the music just sounds better on bigger sound systems. This is a band that needs a big stage, not a club.

Anyway, I've always thought they sound better at festivals, probably because the music is being pumped through much more powerful PAs. Not saying the festival gigs are the best - I don't think they are - but they do sound the best. This tour so far is a roaring success and I'd be very very surprised if they're not making promoters very happy with their performances and the turn out for the gigs. They'll be asked back.

Are there some sound problems? Yeah, a few but so what. If I wanted polished perfection I'd watch the X factor or whatever s**t passes for that these days. What he's doing is good enough, the overall package is mint and he's even dressing better. (I've never understood how someone who looked so god damn f**king cool for two decades in the 80s and 90s just gave up. Recent vids show him looking much more polished. Thank f**k.

Are there things that aren't perfect? Yep, but I for one don't care. Cast your mind back four or five years - what we've got now is unrecognisable. Long may it continue.

Also, on Twitter Chris C posted that he's been let go from Ghost. It doesn't seem like a very positive story - he's a very upbeat guy but it sounds like it might have ended badly. He's a really really nice guy, who is apparently still on good terms with Von, and is basically at a loose end? So maybe that idea of them getting him in on bass isn't as unlikely as it was in the past. This version of the sisters, with these songs, and Chris on bass, would be an AMAZING way for the story to come to a conclusion.

They don't have limitless time in front of them, but I get the impression that things are looking up in the Sisters camp on the back of this tour. This tour has to have made them, or at least Von, a fair chunk of change. I think they could probably afford a fifth member without worrying too much about the future.

Todashi wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 11:26 Also, on Twitter Chris C posted that he's been let go from Ghost.

Oh, thank you for the info. That's a surprise.
Anyway, Chris is such a lovely and positve minded guy with always so many plans and projects to look forward to implementing... ...
He's also just stepped in for another guitarist with Ugly Kid Joe who are curently touring the US. Good luck ... ...

Todashi wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 11:26 .

Also, on Twitter Chris C posted that he's been let go from Ghost. It doesn't seem like a very positive story - he's a very upbeat guy but it sounds like it might have ended badly. He's a really really nice guy, who is apparently still on good terms with Von, and is basically at a loose end? So maybe that idea of them getting him in on bass isn't as unlikely as it was in the past. This version of the sisters, with these songs, and Chris on bass, would be an AMAZING way for the story to come to a conclusion.

They don't have limitless time in front of them, but I get the impression that things are looking up in the Sisters camp on the back of this tour. This tour has to have made them, or at least Von, a fair chunk of change. I think they could probably afford a fifth member without worrying too much about the future.

Andrew wont go backwards in any way. That he and Chris are on good terms is great but once the door shuts behind you you only get invited back if you dont want it! (ref: gary marx 1995 & nowhere saga with Mark saying he was prepared to do pretty much everything he could to help get that off the ground EXCEPT work directly with andrew, which is what von was demanding.seemingly his failure to capitulate was why von shunned the whole idea after being initially very excited by it. Contrariwise cunt is eldritch)

Also a bass player isnt necessary in vons opinion. end of. case closed.

Also don't think that could happen, and i'm speaking only in English Zloty language, nothing else.

But it's too bad that Chris was saked in such a rude way. But having such CV he might find a place soon.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 20:08

Todashi wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 11:26 .

Also, on Twitter Chris C posted that he's been let go from Ghost. It doesn't seem like a very positive story - he's a very upbeat guy but it sounds like it might have ended badly. He's a really really nice guy, who is apparently still on good terms with Von, and is basically at a loose end? So maybe that idea of them getting him in on bass isn't as unlikely as it was in the past. This version of the sisters, with these songs, and Chris on bass, would be an AMAZING way for the story to come to a conclusion.

They don't have limitless time in front of them, but I get the impression that things are looking up in the Sisters camp on the back of this tour. This tour has to have made them, or at least Von, a fair chunk of change. I think they could probably afford a fifth member without worrying too much about the future.

Andrew wont go backwards in any way. That he and Chris are on good terms is great but once the door shuts behind you you only get invited back if you dont want it!.

Tim was invited back but said 'no'.

czuczu wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 21:25

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 20:08

Todashi wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 11:26 .

Also, on Twitter Chris C posted that he's been let go from Ghost. It doesn't seem like a very positive story - he's a very upbeat guy but it sounds like it might have ended badly. He's a really really nice guy, who is apparently still on good terms with Von, and is basically at a loose end? So maybe that idea of them getting him in on bass isn't as unlikely as it was in the past. This version of the sisters, with these songs, and Chris on bass, would be an AMAZING way for the story to come to a conclusion.

They don't have limitless time in front of them, but I get the impression that things are looking up in the Sisters camp on the back of this tour. This tour has to have made them, or at least Von, a fair chunk of change. I think they could probably afford a fifth member without worrying too much about the future.

Andrew wont go backwards in any way. That he and Chris are on good terms is great but once the door shuts behind you you only get invited back if you dont want it!.

Tim was invited back but said 'no'.

my point exactly.

Let's be frank: Chris Catalyst is a fine musician and by all accounts a lovely guy. However: while he was in the band the Sisters stagnated. Von didn't care too much at the live gigs and new songs were few and far between. After he was excluded from the band, suddenly the Big Machine has sparked into life.

As to the "bass player" thing - Von always said that if the Sisters had a human drummer, they'd just expect him/her to do what the Doktor does anyway. I think the same goes for a bass player these days. Personally I think they should invite Tony James back for one gig, lol

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 01:19 Let's be frank: Chris Catalyst is a fine musician and by all accounts a lovely guy. However: while he was in the band the Sisters stagnated. Von didn't care too much at the live gigs and new songs were few and far between. After he was excluded from the band, suddenly the Big Machine has sparked into life.

As to the "bass player" thing - Von always said that if the Sisters had a human drummer, they'd just expect him/her to do what the Doktor does anyway. I think the same goes for a bass player these days. Personally I think they should invite Tony James back for one gig, lol

so they could turn him down again and see if he notices! my answer to anything Tony James is -"the bass line to lucrtetia at reading: NOOOOO!"

I agree with Todashi; I saw them in Philly last night for the first time finally and not only were they on fire but Andrew seemed to be enjoying himself which was good to see.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 02:38 my answer to anything Tony James is -"the bass line to lucrtetia at reading: NOOOOO!"

Haven't heard Lucretia at Reading; he did a good job at Miami

Anyway, someone on Facebook reminded me that is a pretty good bass player in the studio, and it seems obvious that when tech evolved to the point where he could tell the Doktor to play bass just like he wanted it to, he would jump at the chance

zadar_official wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 03:04 I agree with Todashi; I saw them in Philly last night for the first time finally and not only were they on fire but Andrew seemed to be enjoying himself which was good to see.

it is and these as both those things are a delight. that is as good as things can get and whilst they are still operating as a functioning touring band we should count ourselves lucky that we get to see them.

The bass thing is kinda interesting. Does it work? Eh, kind of. I don't think anyone thinks the sound of the sisters live is improved by the mechanised bass. The drums, absolutely. I love the drums and have no need for a dummer whatsoever. The bass is adequate though - not great.

Weirdly I ended up listening to a bootleg yesterday that had conspicuously good sound and the bass was more prominent than usual - Wroclaw CE from 2022, and it made me realise that a live bass player could add a lot, and make each performance more organic, or rather to rebalance the total package. Too much running off sequencers and things become a bit dull. Right now, it's totally up to Ben and Dylan to add dynamics and make each performance come alive. It works, it's good but y'know, it could be tweaked and adding a bass-player would help keep things moving.

The other thing is that Chris C, from memory, was quoted in an interview a while back actually saying he quite liked the idea of coming in to play bass. Now, I don't know Von so I don't know if the lack of a bass player is a deliberate stylistic and artistic choice, or a purely practical decision based on keeping costs down.

But Chris does know him, and pretty well, so you'd have to think he wouldn't have entertained the idea in an interview if he knew it could never happen. Also, the odd gig has happened in recent years where Ben has played bass on one or two tracks - Romeo Down and possibly Neverland? - so in that at least, there's some recognition that a live bass player brings something to at least some songs that a purely sequenced bass doesn't.

Either way, my point in this thread is that things have changed this summer - the Sisters are playing sold out shows in bigger venues than they're used to in the US, and so that means they can probably go back if they want to, and that means the Sisters balance sheet for this year will be healthier than it's been for a while.

So cash probably isn't as big an issue as it might have been before Covid, for example. I don't think Von is a particularly sentimental man, but he's also not stupid, and there's a wave to be surfed here. The sisters are currently revitalised, and it's in his interest to keep things going. Adding a bass player, reprogramming the Doctor and reworking the set to take advantage of that could add some petroleum to the mix and keep this current thing going for four or five more years, bringing him closer and closer to being able to retire with a bank balance to keep things comfortable.

And he wouldn't even have to release an album. He could just say he was doubling down on the Sisters as a live experience.

Exhibit A: Kings Theatre, Brooklyn, June 3rd, 2023.

What touring outfit wouldn't want more of these in their future? Taken from https://www.brooklynvegan.com/the-siste ... 9IVv5JzW00

Chris is a great guy, and there's no doubt that he gave the band a much needed influx of energy and excitement when he joined - the tail-end of the Pearson years being quite grim and surly. But I've also since gotten to thinking that Von himself actually needs to shake things up every now and then to keep things interesting and fresh for himself, and that sometimes means that good lineups which seem to be working well get disrupted. Although nobody can argue that the Chris years were anything other than uncreative, probably the least so in the band's entire history.

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 01:19 Let's be frank: Chris Catalyst is a fine musician and by all accounts a lovely guy. However: while he was in the band the Sisters stagnated. Von didn't care too much at the live gigs and new songs were few and far between. After he was excluded from the band, suddenly the Big Machine has sparked into life.

As to the "bass player" thing - Von always said that if the Sisters had a human drummer, they'd just expect him/her to do what the Doktor does anyway. I think the same goes for a bass player these days. Personally I think they should invite Tony James back for one gig, lol

I've never understood the people who want the band to have a human drummer (technically, I suppose they do have a human drummer - it's just that the human drummer is also the singer, and not a very good drummer by his own account). Even stranger are the people who insist that they actually DO have a human drummer. I knew this guy long ago who claimed that they only used a drum machine on the records, and always had a live drummer at gigs. He even claimed that he had, himself, sat in with the band. It was all so tedious and strange - but mostly tedious.

The bass player thing is more comprehensible, but I admit that I've come to love the monolithic chest-rattling bass that the Doktor provides. And it's yet one more thing which sets the Sisters apart.

And Lucretia is an odd one to single out for the "I want a bassist" conversation - the definitive album version certainly features a sequenced bassline, even if Patti (maybe) played the notes once each.

mh wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 11:57 Chris is a great guy, and there's no doubt that he gave the band a much needed influx of energy and excitement when he joined - the tail-end of the Pearson years being quite grim and surly. But I've also since gotten to thinking that Von himself actually needs to shake things up every now and then to keep things interesting and fresh for himself, and that sometimes means that good lineups which seem to be working well get disrupted. Although nobody can argue that the Chris years were anything other than uncreative, probably the least so in the band's entire history.

the year Chris joined (Josephs Well NME & 4 or 5 festivals) and the following years tour Andrew was definitly drug free -or as drug free as rock stars can be on tour. But i know he was making a concerted effort. . His voice was weak as were the performances. Song writing wise we got Still in 2006, arms the year after? 2 songs from catalyst /christo in all the time Chris was with them. either chris was not as creative as has been assumed or what he was writing was s**t & getting vetoed immediately it reached Von. i doubt it was s**t so we have to go with a lack of creative drive.

fast forward to 2009 & a very NOT drug-free tour. all of a sudden the Dritch looks like a man enjoying his job again. his voice is noticeably stronger. we start to get unplayed oldies like NTTC making a resurgence. rain from heaven. changes. he is definitely an artist who whilst mostly a victim of his own quirks has to manouevre within his restrictions to keep things fresh.

until Dylan. now everything is groovy baby , everyones happy and the creative juices are flowing freely. so is the vodka and no doubt the odd bit of posh but being in an organic outfit is as good as drugs (nearly).

mh wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 11:57 Chris is a great guy, and there's no doubt that he gave the band a much needed influx of energy and excitement when he joined - the tail-end of the Pearson years being quite grim and surly. But I've also since gotten to thinking that Von himself actually needs to shake things up every now and then to keep things interesting and fresh for himself, and that sometimes means that good lineups which seem to be working well get disrupted. Although nobody can argue that the Chris years were anything other than uncreative, probably the least so in the band's entire history.

I don't know if I agree with the `uncreative` label.
For starters, Arms is an absolute banger, as good as any other song from the Pearson era if you ask me, Still is alright.
That said, they did work together in a bunch of other songs, but Von never approved them, far parade became show me, and Chris actually wrote 'I'll call you' as a sisters song, it went nowhere, and he released as an EM tune.

If you ask me, this was more a von issue rather than a chris one, our lad was trying his best to release new tunes but von wasn't having it, probably because he was too comfy playing the same set/formula** for the past 15 years.

I wouldn't be surprised if Chris was the main force that brought back NTTC, Walk Away and A Rock and A Hard place. even Logic was in a hiatus since 2001, and Marian was out of rotation since 2003.
In fact, in one of the gigs from 2011 I believe, Possession was in the setlist but it wasn't played.

I would say his years were not fruitful in terms of new songs, but they were pretty creative in revisiting old tunes. I absolutely love the modern versions of NTTC, Rock and a hard place and Logic.


** The formula:
Crash and burn -> Ribbons -> (train || jeep )/det boulevard -> free real estate -> alice -> dominion -> summer -> free real estate -> (instrumental and/or cover) -> flood 2 -> encore1: something fast, lucretia, encore2: temple, disco and VT.

Chris was there when we populated all this free real estate with all the FALAA goodies and some Sisterhood stuff.


On a side note, Crash and Burn only sound good with Chris on the vocals, current version doesn't have the pan/delay effect on the chorus anymore, which, at least for me, doesn't work.

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 10:27 Exhibit A: Kings Theatre, Brooklyn, June 3rd, 2023.

What touring outfit wouldn't want more of these in their future? Taken from https://www.brooklynvegan.com/the-siste ... 9IVv5JzW00

Well Von for a kick-off, having stated many times, including very recently, that fancy ornate places do nothing for him and he much prefers oblong boxes. Presumably he's looking forward to the Manchester Academy in November then. I agree with you, that's a great photo.

Planet Dave wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 15:52

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 10:27 Exhibit A: Kings Theatre, Brooklyn, June 3rd, 2023.

What touring outfit wouldn't want more of these in their future? Taken from https://www.brooklynvegan.com/the-siste ... 9IVv5JzW00

Well Von for a kick-off, having stated many times, including very recently, that fancy ornate places do nothing for him and he much prefers oblong boxes. Presumably he's looking forward to the Manchester Academy in November then. I agree with you, that's a great photo.

His nose was seemingly not put out of joint by the gorgeous crystal chandeliers at the Fillmore Philly.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 15:08 either chris was not as creative as has been assumed or what he was writing was s**t & getting vetoed immediately it reached Von.

I think it is probably more the second, though I don't know that I'd put it quite the same way. Chris's writing (from what I've heard of it) seems very directed toward a kind of upbeat, alterna-poppy-punik kind of thing, which isn't that suitable for the Sisters. I don't mean that as a criticism of him either. It's just a different animal. How many EM records did he put out while he was in the band? How many of the songs written for EM could ever have worked as Sisters songs, really?

sultan2075 wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 20:24

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 15:08 either chris was not as creative as has been assumed or what he was writing was s**t & getting vetoed immediately it reached Von.

I think it is probably more the second, though I don't know that I'd put it quite the same way. Chris's writing (from what I've heard of it) seems very directed toward a kind of upbeat, alterna-poppy-punik kind of thing, which isn't that suitable for the Sisters. I don't mean that as a criticism of him either. It's just a different animal. How many EM records did he put out while he was in the band? How many of the songs written for EM could ever have worked as Sisters songs, really?

I'll call you was specifically written as a sisters song, it could've worked, I'd argue that the chorus is a bit too upbeat, but then again When I'm on Fire is also quite upbeat and it's using the major scale for a change.

Other songs that could be sisters songs if had new lyrics per album:

Do or die:
She sings to me
Do or Die (with some rework, and new chord progression, but the main riff and melody works)

Champion the Underdog:
Magnets
Professional Crastinator
Godot's Arrived
(ARguably) Beginning of the end of the world

Remain in Hope: not a single song

Brain Waves:
Golden Lonely
Shangri la?

Victories:
I'll call you
My rock and roll is dead

Rarities:
This is a very bass-heavy album, and some songs could've worked with a ton of rework, like Sing and Let me tell you about myself.

Todashi wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 10:19 it made me realise that a live bass player could add a lot, and make each performance more organic

Why would The Sisters of Mercy, the "Big Machine" want to sound "more organic"? There are a million bands with live bass players and drummers you could listen to.

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 01:19 Let's be frank: Chris Catalyst is a fine musician and by all accounts a lovely guy. However: while he was in the band the Sisters stagnated. Von didn't care too much at the live gigs and new songs were few and far between. After he was excluded from the band, suddenly the Big Machine has sparked into life.

Stagnated? Don't know where you've been. I've seen The Sisters steadily develop during all these years, particularly just like Brother Lee said, since 2009. They digged out and updated their old data from almost forgotten PC harddrives and presented us with great new versions of almost every old song the fanbase had yearned for and they even played tracks that nobody had dared to ask for. They wrote new songs and brought the other new songs to perfection. They solved each and every sound problem within a few gigs. They experimented with all sorts of covers, which given this fanbase was clearly a risk at times. They played their stuff to new crowds in new cities like Beirut, Jaffa and Belfast; they visited new countries like Romania, Latvia, Peru, Chile, and eventually also Japan; they won Australia ... and above all, through all this time, THEY ROCK ... and all this while Chris Catalyst was in the band! They were a great line-up. No wonder, Chris and Ben were ask to even play together for other acts, while Eldritch took some well-deserved rest between tours. No need to spark that juggernaut into life. And for sure, Chris was not excluded from the band. He just had other commitments already in 2019, when The Sisters claimed his duties. But Ben found Dylan. And a whole new and swiftly functioning organism has evolved ... ...

They need a bass player only when they think they need one. IMHO, the bass sound now is fully ok. Also I think it's not just like so to add an additional member to a band which has been working in this five-piece constellation (vocals, guitars, guitars, doktor, nurse) for so long ... since 1996 to be precise.

On the subject of Lucretia bass lines, am I alone in being underwhelmed by the current live arrangement?

The bass has gone from being the dominant instrument in the original to being very low in the mix.