Heartland

The myth of Barrett the Incapacitated comes primarily from his refusal to re-enter the music industry. If such a talented artist would disappear after such a troubled time, the narrative assumes, he must have been consumed by it. The idea Barrett didn’t want to go back to something which caused him so much pain never occurs. If someone is driven to drug abuse and mental breakdown by a stressor in his life, people will generally encourage him to avoid it to get better — but apparently not if that someone is Syd Barrett.

Or Andrew Eldritch.

Replace 'drug abuse and mental breakdown' with 'growing avocados and tinkering with computers' and you might be onto something there.

I've been full circle on this, and I think it's been a mistake for him not to record.

I don't know Von, so I don't know what he's really like, but for most people having something like other people's expectations hang over them for so long would be a heavy burden to bare. If he's strong enough that he genuinely doesn't mind what other people want from him, then good for him. I'm jealous. But human beings are social animals, and whether we like it or not, given the choice, we'd rather people approve of us than not.

I also think that creativity is a positive thing, and making things is a positive thing. It's good for our souls, or our mental health or whatever way you want to think of it.

So I get that he got burned by the music industry and he did his best to spin it as retaking control, going on strike etc. I can even get that he moved on, made his peace with it and decided to just tour his legacy to pay the rent. The deal with the audience is you pay for a ticket, and you get what you get. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy any more tickets. It's very honest. Nobody is being ripped off and everyone is getting EXACTLY what they know they're gonna get.

Until 2019.

He wouldn't be human if he didn't get a massive kick out of the burst of creativity we've all seen in recent years -- the reaction of the crowd, and the sense of progression that he will have felt. Right now, after a tour, he will have a spring in his step from just how good he knows it's been lately, and how he's plucked victory from the jaws of defeat, confounded expectations and brought his art to a new high, arguably on a par with his 'golden era.' (Don't @ me, I know some people can't get past pointy boots in 1984)

As I've already said, it's possible he is one of the 1 per cent of people who is so self realised that he genuinely doesn't need other people's approval - and if he is, wow, he's won the game of life, well done - but all things being equal, being creative is better than not being creative. Making things is better than not making things. And having a negative motivation in life, not doing something for negative reasons just sits weirdly. I think that's why so many of us are drawn to his flame, even after all this time.

It sits weirdly with us. Plenty of people out there aren't making albums too, and we don't care about that. There's a reason why this guy not doing it is so arresting. Why do we care? And yet we do. So yeah, I think he should have recorded an album. He's made it a much bigger deal than it should have been. So maybe he might have made a few duds? So what? That's creativity. You can't progress without being willing to make mistakes. And the album that they've been playing live now for two or three years is really really good.

What's crazier than not making another album? Constantly banging on about people not making another album.

Planet Dave wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 10:57 What's crazier than not making another album? Constantly banging on about people not making another album.

Totally agree. And yet . . .

Here we are. Or should I say, we are here.

More like something else that rhymes with 'crazy'

Is there something legally preventing him from releasing anything?
SSV was created to get released from his contract, but is there anything else I've overlooked?

Is Von crazy for not making another album YET? Because I really hope he will.

His reasons/excuses may seem absurd. "I don't need to", "I don't want to", "I don't have time". Yeah, kind of crazy, I'd agree. But apparently he will. "It takes me a while to deliver the final word".

However, this mixture of released and unreleased songs we get during gigs is quite unique, at least in my opinion. Does anyone else do it? No idea.

On the other hand, I still keep on finding the "I had no idea they're still touring" comments. Maybe releasing an album could get bigger crowds?

Dan wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 18:07 Is there something legally preventing him from releasing anything?
SSV was created to get released from his contract, but is there anything else I've overlooked?

In my opinion he is still under contract. As if WEA would have accepted SSV. Otherwise every artist would just produce garbage to get out of a contract.

I see that tour has ended, so HL is back to the usual topic

Bartek wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 23:08 I see that tour has ended, so HL is back to the usual topic

GC wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 22:16 As if WEA would have accepted SSV. Otherwise every artist would just produce garbage to get out of a contract.

They do. The continual arguments that the WEA contract *must* be in force (after 30 years of no product?!?), rather than "Von doesn't want to", just seem weird.

alanm wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 15:01 More like something else that rhymes with 'crazy'

I always wondered at what point in history "fan" came to mean "people who actively resent the target of their 'adoration' and their refusal to cater to their demands"

Todashi wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 10:01 If he's strong enough that he genuinely doesn't mind what other people want from him, then good for him. I'm jealous. But human beings are social animals, and whether we like it or not, given the choice, we'd rather people approve of us than not.

All the evidence from interviews suggests that Eldritch is satisfied with where he's ended up, and that "following his instincts and cravings" rather than what people want of him got him there. But he also clearly does care what people want from him, in the sense that he ruined his own health to do the recent tour - even more so in that he must have been tempted to pack it in after the Roundhouse debacle - and apologised for the gigs that he just couldn't do.

My point in opening this thread is that Syd Barrett has gone down in history for being "crazy" for walking away from the music industry because it was bad for his health. Similarly the resentment towards Eldritch for walking away from recording. Playing shows gets Eldritch sufficient positive attention for much less effort than making records would. Remember that - despite the smart-ass remark in this thread above - Eldritch did go through drug abuse and mental breakdown making FALAA (and it doesn't sound like Vision Thing or "ToL '92" were very pleasant for him to make, given how long they took).

Let's face it, anyone who has read the Facebook group knows that any new Sisters album would be absolutely hated for a lot of the base for not sounding exactly like one of the classic albums. Playing tours gets Von sufficient positive attention with far less work and far less risk. Like Syd Barrett going home to live with his mum, it makes sense. Eldritch *is* making things - new songs - he's even recording them, it's just that we don't get to hear them.

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 23:50 I always wondered at what point in history "fan" came to mean "people who actively resent the target of their 'adoration' and their refusal to cater to their demands"

Peace mate. There's no resentment, or adoration, or demands from this quarter. But I do reserve the right to engage in internet bantz, especially on topics that have been earnestly discussed to death beyond the point of there being anything serious left to say.

I would like him to, but it's ok if he doesn't. I love that they're a "Legacy" band, yet their setlist is as if they're touring on a new album that no one has ever heard.

Many of you will remember that Eldritch interviewed Bowie in the 90's and asked him what was the point in releasing an álbum he (Bowie) knew didn't match the quality of his 70's stuff. A rather silly question, most artist in any field keep releasing stuff that may not be as great as it was on their prime, but still worth the time and effort, for them and the audiences. Because they're artist and that's what they're supposed to do. Look at any filmmaker, writer, painter or musician's career and think about the pieces we would have missed had they followed Eldritch's theory and quitted right after their prime.

I guess there's a number of reasons in Eldritch mind for not releasing stuff. That may be one. He doesn't need to financially, and won't make much money either from récord sales even if he releases it himself. Probably he doesn't want to go mad at the studio again. Great as they are, most of the new songs are basically skeletons that would be way different, knowing him, if they entered the studio to récord them for an álbum. Maybe he fears that new álbum would break the spell the band has put on audiences all over the world, his rebel aura of the man who released three masterpieces and then refused to play the business, maybe...

Maybe another reason for not releasing, and a very personal one, is that he does nt have any children. Maybe if money and inheritence played a role maybe he'd find the neccessity.

(I do realise that this is scraping the bottom of the barrell in terms of reasons and my apoligies to anybody who finds it ridiculous)

G_Paul_K wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 21:17

On the other hand, I still keep on finding the "I had no idea they're still touring" comments. Maybe releasing an album could get bigger crowds?

The Sisters sold out most of the venues on the recent tour, would releasing a new record allow them to go back to Arenas?
Personally I doubt it.

New Model Army also get the "I didn't know they were still going " comments, and they do release new records.

ribbons69 wrote: ↑13 Dec 2023, 01:20 New Model Army also get the "I didn't know they were still going " comments, and they do release new records.

Same is true for Yes. It's much harder to get attention these days, album or no album. It all gets back to, I feel, the thing where people can't understand/identify with Eldo's decision-making processes, and thus end up resenting them, casting them as morally wrong ("lazy") or pathological ("crazy").

H. Blackrose wrote: ↑13 Dec 2023, 01:23

ribbons69 wrote: ↑13 Dec 2023, 01:20 New Model Army also get the "I didn't know they were still going " comments, and they do release new records.

Same is true for Yes. It's much harder to get attention these days, album or no album. It all gets back to, I feel, the thing where people can't understand/identify with Eldo's decision-making processes, and thus end up resenting them, casting them as morally wrong ("lazy") or pathological ("crazy").

I think I have some tangential idea of where he’s coming from, actually. I’m in academia, and I’m lucky enough to be in a position where I’m not really required to publish, and I can teach just about anything I want to teach. I write a pretty good amount but publish almost nothing - usually, if I do, it’s because friends at a journal will ask specifically for something that they know I have in a drawer somewhere. It’s nice not to have to deal with the write/submit/revise-and-resubmit carousel, and I am a lot happier than many of my peers at other institutions, because I don’t need to publish - so I don’t, unless I really want to.

I think Von is in a similar position - he can do what he wants with an audience and he doesn’t need to deal with the stress of the “write/record/release blues.” He’s probably happier than a lot of his peers. Good for him - he’s worked hard and deserves it.

That said I’d love a new record (or three). But I certainly don’t think he’s either crazy or lazy for not giving me one. It increasingly strikes me as a thoroughly understandable position.

sultan2075 wrote: ↑13 Dec 2023, 05:05 It’s nice not to have to deal with the write/submit/revise-and-resubmit carousel

That's an interesting comparison between the two environments. It does strike me as similar experiences.

And then we go into the self-release thing again. Because it's a different thing, isn't it? Is there any level of external scrutiny involved in this? No idea, but why should there be?

However, coming back to the point made by sultan, when you don't need to do something, it might by tempting to just leave things as they are. "Why fix something when it's not broken" stuff. At least for Von.

I'd love him to pick two or three producers and send them the recordings that no doubt exist and say "Do your worst! Or best obviously. Make these skeletons great.

I'm sure there's a few people out there would be up for it. We could have different versions of the same album, there's still no single definitive version of a tune which answers that issue

And it takes the weight of him as he can still say meh, not my version.

Go on.

I'm starting to think he'd be crazy to make another album.

Here's Ben again.

Andrew has never said to me that we would never make a new record, but he also never said, "Let's get together to make a new record".

We certainly have enough songs for it, and during the songwriting process, we put together some demos as a part of the songwriting process...

He has already done all of those things on a huge scale. So, why would he do that necessarily again? You need motivation to go through everything to do an album, from demos, labels, arguments, press, the song order, videos, who will be a producer, who will do this, who will do that,... all of the process, and if Andrew decides to do a new album it would certainly be a big deal.

It might be a massive stress, and he experienced all this in the past.

Add to that...

z666 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2023, 19:14He doesn't need to financially, and won't make much money either from récord sales even if he releases it himself.

And this...

ribbons69 wrote: ↑13 Dec 2023, 01:20The Sisters sold out most of the venues on the recent tour, would releasing a new record allow them to go back to Arenas?
Personally I doubt it.

If a label would put up and shut up, there would be another album by now. Von would be tickled by the payday and the platform.


Alternatively, he could punch up the demos on his own and self-release them in vein of The Reptile House EP. That would mean locking down some definitive versions for scrutiny. But just doing them live is so much easier and he gets paid for his troubles.

Todashi wrote: ↑11 Dec 2023, 10:01being creative is better than not being creative. Making things is better than not making things.

He's been sparse on the details, but I gather it went something like this. They wrote (demoed) the Adam album and he shopped it to labels for production and distribution. No dice.

Then, writer's block. This time, it went on for years. Got under his skin. The words for Far Parade felt like an achievement, worth publishing.

He finished a only a few songs (lyrics?) in the following decade, but was seemingly at peace with tinkering whatever he was already getting. Then Dylan came in.

Let's not forget about another factor: expectations.

Somebody mentioned the other day NMA. There's a new album coming out in some weeks. And no big deal, they've been releasing stuff all this years, pretty good stuff most of the times imho. Then a new album is no big deal, even if some people don't like It much. Or even if It can not compare to their prime. Fans are happy, reviews are usually more benevolous and even those who like it the less tend to be less negative about It. That's what having a normal career and eleasing stuff every now and then does for a band: it relativizes everything, put it all into context.

Now, a new Sisters album would be a huge deal. A cosmic event. That's what 30+ years of waiting has built into. People would be all over It even if they didn't care about the band. Reviews everywhere. And from there on the Sisters wouldn't be anymore the myth they've been, would be "human" again, the band that released this new album, which, no matter how good it may be, for a lot of people would be a dissapointment. Because the myth has become so huge during 30+ years for many people it can't be matched, no matter what. It simply can't. You've read stupid reviews about the shows all this Years, right? Imagine what they can do with a new album out there for everybody to hear.

z666 wrote: ↑14 Dec 2023, 19:20 Let's not forget about another factor: expectations.

Somebody mentioned the other day NMA. There's a new album coming out in some weeks. And no big deal, they've been releasing stuff all this years, pretty good stuff most of the times imho. Then a new album is no big deal, even if some people don't like It much. Or even if It can not compare to their prime. Fans are happy, reviews are usually more benevolous and even those who like it the less tend to be less negative about It. That's what having a normal career and eleasing stuff every now and then does for a band: it relativizes everything, put it all into context.

Now, a new Sisters album would be a huge deal. A cosmic event. That's what 30+ years of waiting has built into. People would be all over It even if they didn't care about the band. Reviews everywhere. And from there on the Sisters wouldn't be anymore the myth they've been, would be "human" again, the band that released this new album, which, no matter how good it may be, for a lot of people would be a dissapointment. Because the myth has become so huge during 30+ years for many people it can't be matched, no matter what. It simply can't. You've read stupid reviews about the shows all this Years, right? Imagine what they can do with a new album out there for everybody to hear.

I would like to agree but then again I dont think the Sisters are that big anymore and a new album would be a plop rather than a splash. Bauhaus and The Psychadelic Furs both released albums after around thirty years of being inactive and this was also no big deal. It was just good news for the fans.

Dont forget AE was willing to hand over SSV as a complete album which could very well have been released by East West and then have milked it financially for all it was worth. So much for quality control on the part of The Sisters. I think that AE should in some ways be grateful to them for not releasing it.

What surprises me more is that AE has never released an album outside The Sisters... collaborative or solo (which makes me believe that he is still contactually obliged to someone)