Vision Thing revisited

[Chief Cohiba]

Guys, I want to throw something in the ring.

Over at FB in some TSOM group there was a discussion going on it wether or not more of the FALAA songs should be played at the concerts nowadays. Arguements where flying, some love FALAA, others hate it, and at some point I stated that „Vision Thing“ is the album that from nowadays perspective is the album that is the least loved by me. It’s just a totally personal thing, and while I guess this could – and was – debated ad nauseam, it’s not what rang a bell with me.

It was some gentleman stating that it is the most „American“ Sisters album.

Which is an interesting statement by itself, and could be discussed – but to me it feels strangely right. In a way. As on the other hand, at least I felt it was the most political album, and, as stated, an "Anti-Bush" album. To me, at these times, right after the fall of the iron curtain, which I experienced living only 50 km away, VT strangely felt apt in these times.

I remember driving to Praha in a big white Volvo – the young me was doing occasional car transfers way back then – listening to Von singing about the Hisbollah and the media in times of Bush’s America administration, while little Ladas and Skodas where all around me. I learned that such cars (it was a 740 estate) where used by state executives only say a year before, thinking I was maybe some strange leftover official – being just a student listening to the Sisters singing about strange political affairs. Turbo Capitalism was considered the cure for all the illnesses of the former eastern block states, Von sang about, and I was amidst.

Anyway, days long gone, but I think that was the time when I learned that the Sisters are an intellectual and higly relevant band, not just some blokes dying their hair black and painting their toe nails, but taking care.

So, if it was an „American“ album, it was because he sang about this America and their dominant influence.

So; how „political“ do you consider the Sisters then and now? Is this still part of their relevance?

Or don’t we even allow politics here?

[Nyth Grandbeard]

I'd say vision thing is definitely the biggest critique on American politics, but from my personal experience being to two sisters gigs in the states so far most of the audience seem to get more excited for Floodland tracks, and even the newer songs. Hell when they played Giving Ground at the last gig I went to the audience went crazy, some guy behind me was like "is that the f**king sisterhood!?" I think modern American politics is pretty far removed from the bush years at the moment, especially with the younger generation of fans, so out of all the albums Vision Thing feels the "least timeless" from a lyrical perspective out of their record releases. Modern American trump-republicans are more scared of made up stories about immigrants than supporting a forever war in the middle east. All that said I think the most accessible album for more casual fans in America is probably Floodland.

As for the politics of TSOM I'd say they were their most political in the 90s, there was a bit of middle east conflict imagery surrounding the sisters, I mean their compilation album was called "A Slight Case of Overbombing" which felt like more than just a comment on being a collection of their most bombastic tracks. But that doesn't mean they stopped, several of their newer songs have allusions to Andrew's politics with Eyes of Caligula, and On The Beach, and his recent interviews paint a better picture of his distaste for right wing politics, and his continued self education of modern leftist issues. That's honestly why I really like Andrew, unlike some other artists who kinda 'lose the plot' so to speak as they age, Von seems to stick true to his ideals from his earlier years.

[Chief Cohiba]

Agreed - I think one thing that went down under the Orange Joker was a tendency to adjust the world to his needs in heavily interfering in exernal affairs. So at least one thing less to write songs about from the view of a non-US artist.

I'd like to see Von's political views not so much strictly anti-right, but rather anti-stupid, which of course has a lot of overlapping. But I agree a lot with him on his views on postmodernism, and strangely postmodernism is something that leftists seem to love, for whatever reasons. So, I might like to think he'd agree when I say that not every left wing position is correct, as every right wing position is wrong, but that is of course interpretation, as it is my very own personal view. I've read somewhere that he read and seemed to like some books from a liberal-conservative author, which I found quite interesting. But didn't follow up yet, nor can remember the interview.

I think one of the ongoing things why the Sisters still are a relevant band, at least to some people gathered here in this forum, and I guess there are some more outside as well, is that they are still a very intelligent endeavour, led by a highly intelligent man. Intelligence of course cuts both ways, it forbids to sing stupid words from maybe otherwise talented guitarists, and it prohibits to sign to stupid ideas, just because someone with a nice face and a talent for public speeches wants to sell them to you.

Andrew wouldnt sign up to these ideas, and The Sisters tell you not to sign up, too.

[eastmidswhizzkid]

My favourite Eldritch quote. He is an anarcho-syndicalist. Or was, so i doubt that has changed.

"My world is divided into Us, Them, and People I Don't Talk To.
Most of the world is actualiy 'us', and I do try to be nice to us, although I think the only way you can get to give something useful to the 'us's of this world, is by being a bastard to the 'them's, because really they are there to be bastards to you, and this is not a world for the weak-willed."

[Chief Cohiba]

My favourite Eldritch quote. He is an anarcho-syndicalist. Or was, so i doubt that has changed.

Yes, he made a comment on that in an interview, referring to the realism of that position.

I think, though, that these remarks are single glimpses on a bigger thing, highlighting different aspects. I guess, as anyone's political views are, if the brain power of that specific person has exceeded a certain level.

Would be interesting to collect some quotes on various political views. But then, maybe not; someone could misuse them, once collected on one place.

[abridged]

He's mellowed I think. Remember him saying he's old school Labour, more current Liberal Democrat.

[Quiff Boy]

He's mellowed I think. Remember him saying he's old school Labour, more current Liberal Democrat.

think that was a long time ago, and the definition of a liberal democrat has changed a lot in that time

[copper]

Von at length on War on Terror, 2002.

[Chief Cohiba]

the definition of a liberal democrat has changed a lot in that time

Not only has it changed in time, it also has a totally different meaning in different regions of the world.

But usually in Europe Liberal Democrats are fairly in the political centre, sometimes a bit right, as in Germany (FDP) and Austria (NEOS), or slightly left, as the Liberal Democrats in the UK.

Von still songs about Margaret Thatcher, which is quite an leftist position, but I think he sees Donald Trump as more of a thread to the global balance nowadays. And that is not anti-right, but rather anti-stupid, at least from a non-US position.

[abridged]

He's mellowed I think. Remember him saying he's old school Labour, more current Liberal Democrat.

think that was a long time ago, and the definition of a liberal democrat has changed a lot in that time

That's true. Maybe I even read that in Underneath The Rock come to think of it. Time flies! Though I suspect he is, like many of us of those generations, old school Labour at heart, without the dodgy social attitudes of the time hopefully. Being of a Derry persuasion it's hard to like any of the parties we have around here (or in the Republic or the UK for that matter these days and I shudder at the USA) so I tend to cling to the notion that there's a few people that still have human decency and empathy about. Vision Thing is certainly more prophetic than any album I can think of given current world events.

[H. Blackrose]

Von is very anti-Brexit, and only the Liberal Democrats have that policy in England now

[deirfiur]

VT was not only American in comment but also in production.. Polished production with more than a glance towards the America 'Rock' market.. A few riffs/Choruses - More, WYDSM, Doc Jeep - a few torch songs - Something Fast and I Was Wrong - and a couple of bangers - VT and Ribbons... Kinda fell between two stools tho as Andy went halfway there with with the music and lyrics... VT, DR Jeep etc were not going to appeal to a mass market.. It's not a coincidence that VT is the most under represented record on tours ..

If you're gonna commit....then commit

[Chief Cohiba]

Von is very anti-Brexit, and only the Liberal Democrats have that policy in England now

He seems to have quite adopted some liberal/centrist/reasonable positions over the years. Usually the Anti-EU movements grow out of either far right or far left soil.

[Chief Cohiba]

VT was not only American in comment but also in production.. Polished production with more than a glance towards the America 'Rock' market.. A few riffs/Choruses - More, WYDSM, Doc Jeep - a few torch songs - Something Fast and I Was Wrong - and a couple of bangers - VT and Ribbons... Kinda fell between two stools tho as Andy went halfway there with with the music and lyrics... VT, DR Jeep etc were not going to appeal to a mass market.. It's not a coincidence that VT is the most under represented record on tours ..

If you're gonna commit....then commit

When I first heard More, which was very early after its release, I thought it was following the Dominion/This Corrosion path, but with guitars and more oomph. Then, when I heard the album, it seemed he jumped on the rock/metal train, which was quite the craze back then, and for the first time thought Andy was following a trend (by his standards).

Management/Sales might have been involved in an overall sleek production, as well as the joice of hairstyle (which didn't last long).

I don't think, though, that the lyrics and general the structure of the songs fall short. In a way I even think they laid the foundation of the newer style of songs, which I really love.

[mh]

VT under-represented in setlists? I would have said quite the opposite. On any given night there's typically 4 to 5 tracks from it played, and it's not unknown for the entire LP to have been played.

[deirfiur]

Fair point .... my bad.... but I think my other observations stand up... very limited space for a guitar based ' Rawk' band talking about geopolitics and VT was definitely making suggestive eyebrow movements at the American market .. It sounds on a lot of tracks that the lyrics are more 'forced' into the music (More is basically Corrosion Part II with a song structure designed for more expansive venues and for larger crowds to sing/jump around to) and vice versa whereas, with the previous two albums, lyrics and music seemed to be better bedfellows... The newer songs are more tempered and subtle than VT (musically) and would, arguably, have made a much better third album.... at least artistically if not financially ... and would have stayed truer to 'The Sisters'

Of course, I could be wrong....

VT under-represented in setlists? I would have said quite the opposite. On any given night there's typically 4 to 5 tracks from it played, and it's not unknown for the entire LP to have been played.

[MrChris]

I'd agree, Deirfiur. VT was a failed experiment. Apart from More and Ribbons, there's very little on the record that I'd choose to listen to now. But an album with the new songs could be magnificent. It's a shame we probably won't get to hear it...

[abridged]

I'd agree, Deirfiur. VT was a failed experiment. Apart from More and Ribbons, there's very little on the record that I'd choose to listen to now. But an album with the new songs could be magnificent. It's a shame we probably won't get to hear it...

Have to disagree. I think Vision Thing is the Sisters album that ages best. I listen to it a bit more than Floodland and a lot more that F&L&A. Yeah it goes overboard with the rawk at times but Vision Thing, the song is probably the sharpest lyric-wise that Von ever was. It was very probably aimed at the American market but as its targets were in the main US politics and ultra capitalism it was always going to be a struggle. I'd suggest as we hear more of VT live than we do other albums that Eldritch thinks it's worth hearing. I can love my fellow man, but I'm damned if I'll love yours sums up where the world is at the moment....

[Chief Cohiba]

I wouldn't say that any of the albums has aged badly, and even the early singles...

It is the most comparable album to the modern songs, and shows Eldritch more political than ever. And lyricwise it was back then most accessible, or at least it appeared so to me. But it lacked the poetry especially from Floodland, which I thought was very lyrical.

[deirfiur]

I guess if you ask any Sisters fan if VT was the record that got them into the girls, then the answer is probably 'no'.. I don't think the masses would listen to VT and it would subsequently lead to them spending an inordinate, unhealthy amount of their adult lives discussing the minutiae of records, gigs , record sleeves and minimal mutterings of the lead singer on online forums ..(what have I done with my life !!!) - plus, I don't think the VT songs are as discussed/debated as much as other songs .

It's not as influential/genre setting record as the first two and is more like a band joining the highway that driving it's own road... Andy was definitely looking at 'Rawk God' stature but , despite best efforts, it ain't the sisters natural home... he wanted to be motorhead with better lyrics but the record ain't dirty enough musically (a result of Andy's OCD in the studio ?) , IMHO, the record is too polished - 'humming AOR' indeed.....

[H. Blackrose]

VT was not only American in comment but also in production.. Polished production

"Polished production"? This is famously the album where Von threw away months of work and went back to initial rough mixes. The opposite of polished.

[deirfiur]

Methinks therein lies one of reasons for the absence of recorded material . Andy's OCD in an environment with endless technological possibilities (a recording studio) can lead to severe stress and a bad experience.. Andy's idea of 'rough mixes' might be another person's idea of over thinking the 'product'... as Tony James alluded to re VT elsewhere on this site ' only eld could hear the difference in the 200 versions'

The studio can be a challenging environment for certain people - Andy's health problems during FALAA. 'I've bled all I can, I won't bleed no more' - and the output is a permanent tattoo to the world. If you only play the songs live, then you can tweak, change, forget them... a recorded song is there to remind/haunt you forever

Not so say that Andy doesn't want to record.. it's just sometimes, maybe getting burned once prevents us from lighting the fire again

VT was not only American in comment but also in production.. Polished production

"Polished production"? This is famously the album where Von threw away months of work and went back to initial rough mixes. The opposite of polished.

[H. Blackrose]

I entirely agree that 99% of the reason that we won't get a new album is because Von is a crippling perfectionist. Same thing with Kate Bush.

[Erudite]

I'm inclined to agree with @abridged - this has aged the best out of the three albums.
It's the one I use as a gateway when introducing the Sisters to friends, particularly if they're more inclined to trad rock.
Lyrically, it has some fine moments. None more so than "I Was Wrong".

[Chief Cohiba]

I'm inclined to agree with @abridged - this has aged the best out of the three albums.
It's the one I use as a gateway when introducing the Sisters to friends, particularly if they're more inclined to trad rock.
Lyrically, it has some fine moments. None more so than "I Was Wrong".

It is definitely the one that prepares best for a current Sisters gig. If one would have seen Wake and then have Ben and Kai on stage, I guess one wouldn't recognize them as the same band.