Heartland

Guys, I want to throw something in the ring.

We all know the fact that Von consistently rejects being labelled as Goth, and that in consequence music journalists and others with opinions regarding this topic ever argumented against it. Nuff said about that.

Personally I can very much see his points, for a multitude of reasons. For myself, though, I had no issue calling myself a goth in my younger days. Having said that, even way back then I felt there were parts of the scene I couldn't connect easily. Some "shades of Goth" if you want I didn't align with, maybe something circling around the melancholy and emotionality inherent in the scene.

And when recently I read in Lol Tolhursts book on that matter (which I quite enjoyed btw) I had a flashback on this when reading this line: "In Goth, lyrics form out of emotional vulnerability as opposed to bravado and certainty" (as in classic rock, may I add).

Yup, that nails it!

I think that's the very line of demarcation; living and even celebrating emotional vulnerability, maybe even surrendering to it. And yes, there have been suicides in the scene, we knew about it. So, is this emotionality and vulnerabilty the key element or (even sole) source for goth as an artform, as Lol Tolhursts suggests?

If yes, then for sure the Sisters are not Goth, but rather the antithesis of it. Songs like "Temple of Love" - like many more - are about not surrendering to those vulnerabilities, but overcoming them. Yes, love is over in the morning, but don't you whine about it.

But if Goth is more than being allowed to obey and surrender your emotions, or maybe if artists like Lord Byron, Jim Morrison, Artur Rimbaud, or - why not - Link Wray or Screaming Jay Hawkins can be considered "Gothic", then I'd say The Sisters Of Mercy fit quite well in that queue. (Of course to me that is, I am not sure it Mr. Eldritch would agree to that).

Sorry for this rather long blurb, I just had to get this off my chest. You might find it easy to ignore...

I think that most of the typical Goth bands have a certain cold pragmatism about them, including The Sisters - I mean the likes of Joy Division, Bauhaus, Nephilim, Siouxie etc.
The outsiders view is that all goth lyrics are emotionally charged and filled with sadness, when that is not the case.

But as a wise man (they worded it much better) on MyHeartland once said, the audience decides whether a band is Goth, not the band

But also... "Black wind come carry me far away" is the most Goth line ever written.

I think the best of this genre, or certain music I like in general, tends to straddle the line between emotional vulnerability, looking at the world as it really is, overcoming all of that and having a sense of humour about it, AND not being confined to any label in order to express any of this, which is what any artist including Von asks for at the end of the day. I'm personally drawn to the work of the aforementioned artists because I get some element of all this out of most of those people.

GC wrote: ↑14 Feb 2025, 15:35 But also... "Black wind come carry me far away" is the most Goth line ever written.

Until you realise it's about eating too much black • pudding.

* Wouldn't be seen dead eating white pudding.

GC wrote: ↑14 Feb 2025, 15:29 I think that most of the typical Goth bands have a certain cold pragmatism about them, including The Sisters - I mean the likes of Joy Division, Bauhaus, Nephilim, Siouxie etc.
The outsiders view is that all goth lyrics are emotionally charged and filled with sadness, when that is not the case.

But as a wise man (they worded it much better) on MyHeartland once said, the audience decides whether a band is Goth, not the band

I'd go a step further and say that it is decided in retrospect by art historians and by artists inspired by the original, and the people of the historical movement are largely immaterial




Goth culture, in the sense of the actual culture of the goths, separate from any authorial intent, has always bordered on and occasionally included some self-parody. The goth gf anthem "Black No. 1 (Little Miss Scare-All)" by Type O Negative is also actually an active mockery of goth culture.

Yeah, you wanna go out 'cause it's raining and blowing
You can't go out 'cause your roots are showing
Dye 'em black
Ooh, dye 'em black

Or "Collapsing New People" by Fad Gadget, which is actually a reference to Einstürzende Neubauten, who were IMHO not really goth musically, but sure looked a lot like a goth band or TSOM:

Exaggerate the scar tissue
Wounds that never heal
Takes hours of preparation
To get that wasted look

The latter was surely written with love as Neubauten collaborated with Fad Gadget at the time; I'm sure the former was, too.

Now, whether this inclusion is a result of ironic self-awareness, of people coming into the culture who were not aware of the joke or a microcosm of capitalism subsuming all critiques of itself is left to decide as an exercise to the reader.

I've always seen the Sisters as skirting the edges of goth, but never fully embracing it. Eldritch's whole persona seems built on a kind of cynical detachment, which, like you said, is pretty different from the vulnerability thing.

Despite resembling Count Orlock, Von has never waxed romantic about vampires. So… not goth.

Isn't it whatever the Independent or Guardian tell us it is when they churn out the same old article two or three times a year?
Current version https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 98070.html

ruffers wrote: ↑17 Feb 2025, 09:24 Isn't it whatever the Independent or Guardian tell us it is when they churn out the same old article two or three times a year?
Current version https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 98070.html

In defence of the independent, at least that article isn't the usual "A-listers wearing black means goth is coming back into fashion" bollox

Pista wrote: ↑17 Feb 2025, 09:38

ruffers wrote: ↑17 Feb 2025, 09:24 Isn't it whatever the Independent or Guardian tell us it is when they churn out the same old article two or three times a year?
Current version https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 98070.html

In defence of the independent, at least that article isn't the usual "A-listers wearing black means goth is coming back into fashion" bollox

Fair enough. It's actually quite good compared to the usual nonsense on reflection.

I never really considered myself a goth. Yes i listened to goth music but i listened to more metal and rock really. I used to frequent goth clubs and shag goth chicks because our clubs were the best and goth chicks were the hottest. And i dressed the same as i always had growing up - black on black, band shirts & leathers but i was brought up by bikers so not the greatest of differences, except i had more inherent style than my parents. However if youd called me a goth i'd have said all of the above, BUT i am a Sisters fan. And that remained the way of it for years. Until those cunts murdered Sophie Lawrence. For BEING a goth. Not dressing like a goth.... for BEING a goth. And it occurred to me that Sophie was all of our little sisters, all of our girlfriends and all of our own kids. Alll of them. And i thought that maybe if that scum or indeed the next batch of the same had seen a nasty hard bastard like me call himself a goth then maybe thery'd think twice about killing our little girls. So i'm a GOTH. 100% RIP Sophie

GC wrote: ↑14 Feb 2025, 15:29 The outsiders view is that all goth lyrics are emotionally charged and filled with sadness, when that is not the case.

Well, "outsiders view"; I found it of peculiar interest that Lol Tolhurst, who I wouldn't call an outsider of ll matters goth, defined "emotional vulnerability" as a core element of goth culture. This makes it hard for me to accept this term for myself and a lot of bands I love.

Pista wrote: ↑17 Feb 2025, 09:38
In defence of the independent, at least that article isn't the usual "A-listers wearing black means goth is coming back into fashion" bollox

Haven't I read the one claiming "goth is coming back because of political crisis" the year before? I guess these are alternating...

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: ↑17 Feb 2025, 18:20 I never really considered myself a goth. Yes i listened to goth music but i listened to more metal and rock really. I used to frequent goth clubs and shag goth chicks because our clubs were the best and goth chicks were the hottest. And i dressed the same as i always had growing up - black on black, band shirts & leathers but i was brought up by bikers so not the greatest of differences, except i had more inherent style than my parents. However if youd called me a goth i'd have said all of the above, BUT i am a Sisters fan. And that remained the way of it for years.

There seems quite an overlap. If there would be a Venn diagram between Bikers and Goths, the Sister would be the intersection. And agree, I wouldn't call myself Goth any longer, but still can sign on the "Sister-Fan" line. Well, that is, maybe I wouldn't call myself a "fan", as this smells a bit like "can I have a selfie" kind of thing, but still my favourite band.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: ↑17 Feb 2025, 18:20 Until those cunts murdered Sophie Lawrence. For BEING a goth. Not dressing like a goth.... for BEING a goth. And it occurred to me that Sophie was all of our little sisters, all of our girlfriends and all of our own kids. Alll of them. And i thought that maybe if that scum or indeed the next batch of the same had seen a nasty hard bastard like me call himself a goth then maybe thery'd think twice about killing our little girls. So i'm a GOTH. 100% RIP Sophie

For that reason; likewise. It's still hard to read about this, though it didn't make it to the news over here when it happened. I still fail to understand how this could happen to this little girl and her boyfriend.

But let me add; it wouldn't make a difference if someone would be bullied because she (or he) is Goth, or Punk, or Gay, or whatever.

Chief Cohiba wrote: ↑18 Feb 2025, 13:13 There seems quite an overlap. If there would be a Venn diagram between Bikers and Goths, the Sister would be the intersection.

Wouldn't that be a... Von diagram?

I'll see myself out.

flowers_to_burn wrote: ↑20 Feb 2025, 04:06

Chief Cohiba wrote: ↑18 Feb 2025, 13:13 There seems quite an overlap. If there would be a Venn diagram between Bikers and Goths, the Sister would be the intersection.

Wouldn't that be a... Von diagram?

I'll see myself out.

flowers_to_burn wrote: ↑20 Feb 2025, 04:06
Wouldn't that be a... Von diagram?

I'll see myself out.