Heartland

Any thoughts?

lots. you?

I have, Mr. James.
It has created somewhat of a to-do I hear. However, I found it no more contreversial than Scorcese's 'The Last Temptation'.
It was a powerfully made film but for what reason? I saw Robert Powell crucified for my sins many years ago and then Willem Defoe a few years later.
I assume Gibson wants us all to know what our lord went through and he does that. As for the Jews condemnation of the film I am unaware of any biblical inaccuracies within the movie.
Richey?

I havnt been to see it yet, but would like to.

I have no faith so i suppose i would not have a natural bias, nor a qualified view of what was pro or anti a certain group according to the bible which ive never read in any depth.

Anyway, im not going critiqe the film itself until ive seen it. Im interested in everyones thoughts though...

Paddy.

i remember arguing in a meeting with the uni christian association about our decision to show 'Last Temptation'... blocked ears and blocked lives, those particular individuals. it was shown, without the promised protests.. it was a sunday night after all...

Steve303 wrote:I have, Mr. James.
It has created somewhat of a to-do I hear. However, I found it no more contreversial than Scorcese's 'The Last Temptation'.
It was a powerfully made film but for what reason? I saw Robert Powell crucified for my sins many years ago and then Willem Defoe a few years later.
I assume Gibson wants us all to know what our lord went through and he does that. As for the Jews condemnation of the film I am unaware of any biblical inaccuracies within the movie.
Richey?

about the jews condemnation, it's not about inaccuracies it's about perception (from what I heard, th movie isn't available here yet...), the thing is...it makes the role of Pilatus as if he's completely innocent, but the jews wanted him dead, not really making the statement it's not "the jews' but the rabbi council, which is logical, because the "being" of christ was against their power....and making the mistake the church has historically been very willing to do of pointing out "the jews" killing him, while minimising the fact he himself was a jew....what means he wasn't killed "by the jews" but by his own people, which is a much harder statement...
that mistake is an sich not so important, were it not that catholics, and also other cultures, found in this a justification for the persecution of the jews, because "after all, they killed christ".....
and don't say it wouldn't happen again....I have jewish origins, and one of my first memories, was when people came out of catholic religion class, started to insult me because "we killed christ".....

but what of the alleged anti-semitism steve?

or the homo-erotic sado-masochism?

and, most importantly, the cameo by the grim reaper from bill and ted?

RicheyJames wrote: and, most importantly, the cameo by the grim reaper from bill and ted?

Please tell me big J gives him a wedgie !!!!!!

Paddy

.... ever so sorry....

This is no time for laughter Richey. I did expect a shout of "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy" at any moment.

Well, the beatings were pretty brutal - more reason to feel he died for our sins. I didn't find them particularly homo-erotic.

As for the Jewish issue, its far too massive a debate to discuss in brief but the bible that I was taught (at a very religious methodist primary school) were very similar to the way it was told. So - if it happened, I can't argue with Gibsons vision of events.

Steve303 wrote:As for the Jewish issue, its far too massive a debate to discuss in brief but the bible that I was taught (at a very religious methodist primary school) were very similar to the way it was told. So - if it happened, I can't argue with Gibsons vision of events.

didnt gibson consult with the vatican for certain elements, in order to get historical accuracy?

...like they're unbiased

Quiff Boy wrote:

Steve303 wrote:As for the Jewish issue, its far too massive a debate to discuss in brief but the bible that I was taught (at a very religious methodist primary school) were very similar to the way it was told. So - if it happened, I can't argue with Gibsons vision of events.

didnt gibson consult with the vatican for certain elements, in order to get historical accuracy?

...like they're unbiased

yep, I just read an interview with the leading actor...he said it's impossible it's antisemittic or the vatican wouldn't have allowed it
he forgot the role oft he church during ww2 I guess? or any other stance the church ever took?

Padstar wrote:Please tell me big J gives him a wedgie

Accompanied by a ridiculously fast Steve Vai outburst...

randdebiel² wrote:he forgot the role oft he church during ww2 I guess? or any other stance the church ever took?

I was amazed when my Mum told me the Vatican had only officially apologised to the Jews within the last 20 years or so for blaming them for Christ's death. I had always thought Jewish persecution stemmed from jealously caused by their having short arms and deep pockets. My stupidity astounds me sometimes.

Thrash Harry wrote: I was amazed when my Mum told me the Vatican had only officially apologised to the Jews within the last 20 years or so for blaming them for Christ's death. I had always thought Jewish persecution stemmed from jealously caused by their having short arms and deep pockets. My stupidity astounds me sometimes.

even that reputation is partly due to the church...then thing is ...in the middle-ages only jews could be money-lenders or bankers because it "was not suited for good christians", so the jews were practically forced to take these jobs, but of course geot very wealthy doin them....so there came another reason for hating the jews....now they were too rich and powerful...but most people forgot it was the fault of their own church.....

about the way the church behaved in ww2....I should recommend a very good movie: amen by costa gavras with matthieu kassovitz....

Quiff Boy wrote:

Steve303 wrote:As for the Jewish issue, its far too massive a debate to discuss in brief but the bible that I was taught (at a very religious methodist primary school) were very similar to the way it was told. So - if it happened, I can't argue with Gibsons vision of events.

didnt gibson consult with the vatican for certain elements, in order to get historical accuracy?

...like they're unbiased

Indeed, you wouldn't want the catholic church as a character witness now would you?

I dont even want to BELONG to it....
dont get me started

Saw a bit of a documentary about this the other night but haven't seen the film (and probably won't, to be honest, the doc put me off).

One point that was made relates to Gibson's sources. In addition to the gospels (which, as others have pointed out, do contain various idiosyncracies which make the concept of Gospel Truth an interesting one) he also sourced the writings of a couple of C19 theologians. One of these, a German woman whose name now eludes me, had a particularly anti-semitic reputation.

There is also the question of the line in (IIRC) Matthew, where the Jews state "His blood is on us, and on our children". AFAIK this is only in one gospel, and represents a pretty justification for continuing anti-semitism. The doc also pulled up a quote from Hitler which suggested the seeds of the holocaust were planted by a seeing a Passion play which followed the interpretation implied by that particular line. Still, it was good to see a TV doc mention Hitler, he doesn't get much airtime these days, does he?

However, since this comes from a half-hearted interest in a show called "Mel Gibson: God's Lethal Weapon" (really!) I wouldn't accept my account as gospel. I'd just been out playing football and I _ached_.

The most telling comments for me came from Christopher Hitchens, who argued that Gibson depicts an almost unbearable show of human suffering as Christ is brutally killed, but does so to no meaningful end. Apparently (and I repeat that I've not seen the film) there is no sense of who Christ was and why his crucifixion is so significant. Maybe the assumption is that an audience wouldn't need prompting since Christ is a fairly significant figure in global culture already, but it does run the risk of creating a homo-erotic, sadistic gore-fest which masquerades as religious art.

man's inhumanity to man.

andymackem wrote:Still, it was good to see a TV doc mention Hitler, he doesn't get much airtime these days, does he?

He seems to keep the History channel in business.

andymackem wrote:Still, it was good to see a TV doc mention Hitler, he doesn't get much airtime these days, does he?

why o why did they cancel bottom?

Thrash Harry wrote:

andymackem wrote:Still, it was good to see a TV doc mention Hitler, he doesn't get much airtime these days, does he?

He seems to keep the History channel in business.

Channel Five do pretty well out of him to. Well, that and Killer Squid Attack!

"Shaun And The Undead" anyone?

Thrash Harry wrote:I was amazed when my Mum told me the Vatican had only officially apologised to the Jews within the last 20 years or so for blaming them for Christ's death. I had always thought Jewish persecution stemmed from jealously caused by their having short arms and deep pockets. My stupidity astounds me sometimes.

The second Vatican Council of 1965 I believe. And it wasn't so much a case of "apologise" as "we're not blaming the Jews any more."

Gibson's father is a member of a Catholic splinter-group that rejects most of VC2's reforms (they still do mass in Latin for one thing) and has gone on record denying that the Holocaust happened. The combination of this with the film's alleged anti-semitism (I haven't seen it) is surely a cause for concern.

At least it makes a change for a Hollywood movie to be anti-Jew these days, rather than anti-Muslim...

I have not seen it. But there was a man here in Norway that placed a couple of bombs ca. ten years ago, that case was never solved. But after seeing this movie, he felt so guilty that he turned him self in to the police. So he is getting trialed now.

I also heard that there were a couple of priests that had a heart attack and died watching it.

I will probably see it one day, but I am not running out the door to see it.

Black Horizon wrote:Another thing, if God exists he is a complete BASTARD.

oh yes