Heartland

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They are some sad fuckers in this world.

The attitude of many of those involved in the Iraq war seems to be "What's one more death when you're already ankle-deep in corpses?"

markfiend wrote:The attitude of many of those involved in the Iraq war seems to be "What's one more death when you're already ankle-deep in corpses?"

Or "What's one more death when you're nobly crusading against the Threat Of The Twenty-First Century" (yeah, and all the centuries before that).

It's not definite though, is it? Fingers crossed for the poor guy...

boudicca wrote: It's not definite though, is it? Fingers crossed for the poor guy...

It most centainly is, alas.

Oh dear ... :-(

sadly, i didn't expect any other conclusion.

two afghans die and nobody says a thing.
two palestinians die and nobody says a thing.
twelve iraqis die and nobody says a thing.
twenty-eight israelis die and nobody says a thing.

but one brit loses his head and we've got a special thread where we can all show how deeply concerned we are. well excuse me if i fail to shed a tear for the mercenary old sod. unlike those other forty-four poor souls, bigley chose to put himself at risk. he knew the risks and decided that it was worth it for whatever he was being paid.

and while i'm here, nazis might be "no fun" but they still had the best uniforms!

@ RicheyJames

idd,
.........I don't want to add anything.
nothing will change anyway.

EVERY death in this is worth mourning.. whether its for the cause, the manner, the cruelty of the perpetrator, the stupidity/haplessness/mercenary tendencies/innocence that got the victim into the wrong place at the wrong time...

there aren't enough tears.

I think its because people are starting to realise that the death of a fellow Brit just shows how close this thing is getting to home.

That man isnt just some person in a country that youve never been to. Ken Bigley could have been your friend, relative, someone you know.

If it was an Australian im sure my country would make a big deal about it.

i have some very mixed opinions on this one...

on the one hand i agree with emilystrange in that any death is sad, especially when its in a situation like this

and i also agree with ryan in that i think the reason that ken's death has hit people in the uk hard is because its bringing the whole mess a little too close to home for a lot of people :urfF:

but i also have to agree with richey in that no one in the uk seemed to mind too much when everyone else died at the hands of "terrorists"...

and i'm slightly sickened by tony blair's little speech where he said it was a tragedy that ken was killed in iraq "when he was only there trying to make the country a better place live".

bullshi*t.

he was there because his employers offered 500 quid a day to go and work in a warzone. don't try and turn him into some kind of f**king saint, he was doing his job. and he was getting well paid for it. he wasnt doing charity work for unesco dont dress it up and dont try to make him into a martyr.

ho humm.

i didn't say i disagreed with richey. but sometimes, you end up crying for no one, whatever the circumstances, cos you'd just be crying forever.

Richey James wrote:nazis ...but they still had the best uniforms!

That was never in dispute.

Guns and cars and accidents happen. Maybe. Bombs and beheadings shouldn't. I just find it all very, very sad but I can't do a fuck about it. Maybe I'm just not as dead inside as you.

Being Irish/Protesant/Jewish I obviously know nothing about conflict, violence, bigortry and the waste of human life first hand. Maybe I should waste my time spongeing and writing a novel, about another serial killer.

Currently listening to The Cure first album.

Quiff Boy wrote:but i also have to agree with richey in that no one in the uk seemed to mind too much when everyone else died at the hands of "terrorists"...

And what? You interrupted your daily routine because what had happened was so important you rushed out out to your local church/mosque/temple of love/synagogue/vegan society and said your prayers?

Quiff Boy wrote:he was there because his employers offered 500 quid a day to go and work in a warzone. don't try and turn him into some kind of **** saint, he was doing his job. and he was getting well paid for it. he wasnt doing charity work for unesco dont dress it up and dont try to make him into a martyr.

Maybe my Rock Against PC Correctness should be here. Are you real? An administrator? Look at the words you've typed. I'm sure great, great comfort to his family. And for for the first time in my life, as much respect I have for you, you complete and utter fucking twat, irrespective of your political views show some decorum to the dead. they don't even have a body to bury yet.

RicheyJames wrote:well excuse me if i fail to shed a tear for the mercenary old sod. unlike those other forty-four poor souls, bigley chose to put himself at risk. he knew the risks and decided that it was worth it for whatever he was being paid.

Fnck off you bastard.

That's my line.

Interesting. A little while back Francis (I think) posted something about the tragedy of 9-11. That post got a resounding and unanimous "Who gives a ****?" But one guy in the UK dies, and it's a terrible tragedy.

Honestly, I don't care where on the earth death happens, you've got to have your priorities straight. I live in the US, and I personally find what happened on 9-11 a bit more upsetting than one guy dying in Iraq because that one guy chose to be there when he knew just how dangerous the situation is (as has been pointed out) and wasn't embarking on what should have been a peaceful day at work (such as what happened on 9-11).

But I also think that what happened in Beslan recently is even more horrible than 9-11 because, even though there were fewer deaths, these were children trying to get an education and not adults on their way to work.

In my humble and entirely inconsequential opinion, I think how one perceives tragedies should be based on a sense of priorites and not nationality.

JB wrote:as much respect I have for you, you complete and utter fucking twat, irrespective of your political views show some decorum to the dead. they don't even have a body to bury yet.

Well, then, JB - why not show some 'f*cking decorum' to the living, too? Everybody's entitled to a 'f*cking' opinion, matey...

Or is free speech dead where you are?

JB wrote:

Quiff Boy wrote:he was there because his employers offered 500 quid a day to go and work in a warzone. don't try and turn him into some kind of **** saint, he was doing his job. and he was getting well paid for it. he wasnt doing charity work for unesco dont dress it up and dont try to make him into a martyr.

I'm sure great, great comfort to his family. And for for the first time in my life, as much respect I have for you, you complete and utter fucking twat, irrespective of your political views show some decorum to the dead. they don't even have a body to bury yet.

Fair warning: what I'm about to post completely lacks any tact.

Who gives a flying f*** about his family? Sorry, but he was a big boy and knew exactly what he was doing. If I said I would give you a large sum of money to jump in the middle of a rabid dogfight and you decided it was worth the money and then got killed in the process, why in the name of god should what happened be called tragic?

He knew the risks but the want of a sparkly new car stood in the way of any kind of common sense. Oh yes, how horribly tragic that was. And so unexpected. Let's canonize him.

*gulp* This thread is beginning to remind me of the War On Terror itself.

I tend towards Richey's take on it, I must admit - it's much the same kind of feeling I get when the media mourns the death of a single soldier, screw the countless Iraqi women left without husbands. That said, you've got to have some respect for the man.
Take the harshest view if you like that he was a 'mercenary old sod' (although I wouldn't describe someone who takes a job which is not only risky but helpful to other people that way, just because he gets something out of it. Pardon him for not being completely selfless, then he might be worthy of just a little tact a few hours after his death). At the very worst, he wanted to be well off in his old age. Don't we all? f**king hell, I'm only 20, and I think I'm a mercenary old sod already...

I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to see any more time spent mourning him than thousands of other nameless people who happen to be on the 'other side', but you don't need to speak ill of him any more than you would those people either.

boudicca wrote:*gulp* This thread is beginning to remind me of the War On Terror itself.

One thing I've learned since I've been here- these posts always get ugly.

I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to see any more time spent mourning him than thousands of other nameless people who happen to be on the 'other side', but you don't need to speak ill of him any more than you would those people either.

I don't think that anyone here is saying this guy was a horrible human being, just that it's a bit off to start a special thread in his honor and then ignore the rest of the dead.

Not posted on here ( or anywhere) regularly for a while, but looking over this thread , at this time in the morning, I feel that I have to spread my random thoughts somwhere.

First up, George Galloway. If he has made the money suggested from various sources in the middle east, how would the British Press react if it was him in this situation?

If we had a strong government who were popular with the press, would it be their fault?
This one may offend some. If Ken Bigley (who was having one last money spinner before retiring, if some press reports are to be believed) had not been kidnapped and made a fortune before December, would his family not accpet any Christmas Gifts from him because his money was tarnished?

It is sad when anyone dies. That is a fact. Even suicide bombers have somone in their family that doesn't agree with their actions.

The reaction of the press over the last few weeks makes me think that we haven't had a martyr since Dianna.

But that argument is for another thread.

Peace to all

JB wrote:...show some decorum to the dead...

Although my views on the matter aren't quite as strong as Quiffy expressed, I've always had a problem with the sentiment that we should automatically show respect for the dead (similar to "respect your elders").

Someone who has died, or someone who is old, or someone who has cancer, may be just as much of a b*stard as anyone else. Respect should be earned, and while I'm not sure that Bigley has done anything that should render him undeserving of respect (or decorum), I always get wary when the press & media start playing their saints & martyrs card.

Hitlers dead and i dont like him

boudicca wrote:I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to see any more time spent mourning him than thousands of other nameless people who happen to be on the 'other side', but you don't need to speak ill of him any more than you would those people either.

a fair enough point.

smiscandlon wrote:I always get wary when the press & media start playing their saints & martyrs card.

in my defense i will say that my post was made in reaction to seeing a very earnest tony blair on newsnight, sat in a chair "addressing the nation" or somesuch, and claiming that ken was out there doing his best to help the people of iraq and that thats why it was such a tragedy that he died...

i nearly choked at the insincerity, hypocrisy and downright "spin" of it all...

in the cold light of day maybe i dont feel quite so harshly about the situation, and i certainly wouldnt want to wish any disrespect on his family at any point. i'm not that unfeeling.. all i wish is that we are all honest with ourselves about the whole situation.

there was a time in the mid 80s when my dad had the opportunity of working out in the gulf for a huge wad of cash, but he turned it down on the grounds that it was too risky - it was a hotbed of activity back then too. the irony of it is that not long after that he was called up (he was a nurse in the territorial army at the time) and was in the gulf anyway... this time patching up soldiers and injured civilians

i'm sure ken went into the situation with his eyes open: a calculated risk as it where. granted its a shame he died, and its awful for his family that his death was sppun out like that, but as lots of people here have already said its a shame when anyone dies as a result of politics and warfare.

some of the people that died as a result of this whole mess had no choice but to be in that country, and died in situations totally out of their control. i feel more pity for those than for an englishman who took the chance to earn a lot of money in a dangerous country and paid the ultimate price

sorry of anyone still feels that makes me a tw*t, but there you go. we all have our opinions and we all have our own differing priorities and concerns (thats why i like this place!)