Heartland

It occurs, despite or because of his taste for Kierkegaard, Hegel and Wittgenstein, Eldritch - the persona - is very much in the mould of Nietzche's "Over" or superman. The artist for who having style transcends all other considerations, who believes in his will to power, and particularly, that not to assert one's rights is a form of cowardice.
Eldritch's relation to both band members and record label bears this out - the work is all important and must not be compromised at any expense (fans, records, friends).

Feel free to discuss.

_________________
Caught between two mirrors,
the soul reflects ad infinitum.
You watch the shadows dance,
form once more mistaken for substance.

<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Erudite on Jul 8, 2002 8:13pm ]</font>

Hehehe - yeah. I wonder if ol' Android's a secret Rand fan...

Oh my god, Nietzschean philosophy right before bed.
Well, now that you mention it i can see some similarities. The Nietzschean superman must have reverance for oneself, love for oneself, unconditional freedom before oneself and be above mankind. This superior man deserves to rule others and is beyond conventional precepts (not sure if that's the right word in english) of good and evil, not just by refusing to sacrifice himself to others but by gaining dominance over them. To shackle a man's free will with external forces, like governments or evil big business (record companies in this case ) is to deny the will of natural man. Nietzsche criticizes conventional slaves (christians) and for him man's will to power underlies all human existence. Actually it would be interesting to analyse Eldritch's career from a Nietzschean point of view.
Like you said, "Eldritch's relation to both band members and record label bears this out - the work is all important and must not be compromised at any expense (fans, records, friends)." Very Nietzschean ummm very interesting, i must look more into this.
And actually in these times of great turmoil and confusion the music world is no exception. Although i would like to have a new Sisters album i would much rather wait until they have really good songs then they releasing a crappy album. In these times songwriting craftmanship seemed to have lost importance. Not too many people care or notice if a song has depth and other meanings, as long as you can shake your "booty" to it or is the ype of the week t's just fine. I could ramble on and on about this, as i'm sure you could too. Terrible. At least we know a few artists still care about making good things and i hope we can trust the Sisters on this. I would rather never have a new album than to have a terrible one. And to be honest, although, as any fan, i would love a new album, Eldritch is not really obligated to release anything, after all, he is free to do whatever he wants. If he'd rather spend the rest of his life bird watching, there is nothing we can really do about it.
On a different note, i was once talking to this guy and started to talk about Nietzsche and the guy goes "ah, you must be a right winged extremist" Grrrrrr what an idiot. Nietzsche is one of the most misunderstood philosophers.

On Jul 6, 2002 11:53am, Erudite wrote:
It occurs, despite or because of his taste for Kierkegaard, Hegel and Wittgenstein, Eldritch - the persona - is very much in the mould of Nietzche's "Over" or superman. The artist for who having style transcends all other considerations, who believes in his will to power, and particularly, that .
Eldritch's relation to both band members and record label bears this out - the work is all important and must not be compromised at any expense (fans, records, friends).

Feel free to discuss.

Hmmm, hmmmm.......... I really am not into Nietzche or any other pseudo intellectual bollocks (relax folks, just my opinion, you can all like or dislike it as much as you wish, doesn't bother me ). I hate labels or boxes of any kind however 'academic' the origins. People are all individuals and are all unique - you can never capture the essence of someone by grouping them into some theory...

Anyway....

I have a couple of questions

1) Are you wanting to discuss 'Eldritch the persona' as others perceive him, as Eldritch wishes his 'persona' to be perceived, or his subconcious activities that lead him to be as he is? All 3 are going to be hugely different, and, lets face it, the only ones known to us are our individual perceptions of his behaviour which are going to differ....

2) Erm, isn't he just passionate about what he wants to acheive and doesn't want anything to stand in his way... who are we to comment on i) what he wants to achieve, ii) the way he goes about it? Aren't we just some people who buy his work and go to his gigs? Apart from a monetary factor why should he consider our opinions and let these opinions affect his work or behaviour? Isn't what he does driven by personal needs not the needs of the public?

3) Re: 'not to asserts one's rights is a form of cowardice'

Yeah, and? Should people be passive creatures who never assert their rights and therefore let other people take precedence? Yes there are areas in life where 'biting one's tongue' is appropriate but we're talking about his life's passion for christs sake....


I fully admit that I have taken the Nietzche comparison as negative and that probably (definately? ahem) reflects how I feel about the whole issue of 'intellecual' philosophy and, as I have said, stereotypes in general (and before anyone rushes to read all my posts to find examples of my having used stereotypes, yeah I know they are probably there.... ). But I would like to offer the following....

I am on the verge of signing a book contract for 2 books. (had the formal offer, awaiting the drafting of the contract) When I start to write the first book I will write it as I wish it to be written. If my editor doesn't like it and I don't agree with his reasons why then it will be bye bye editor because it is MY work. If the publishing house doesn't like it and I don't agree with their reasons then it will be bye bye publishing house because it is MY work. If after having had the first book reach the public domian and I decide to the disdain of my 'fans' (getting ahead of myself I know ) that I don't want to do the second book in the style of the first, or I want a gap between the first coming out and the writing of the second, or that I actually don't want to write the second book then I'm afraid its tough on the fans because it is both MY work and MY life. Does this mean I fit a box labelled superman (hmmm, tempting) or does it just mean that this is a passion of MINE and I rightly want to have the ultimate control over it?

@GS

Possibly some confusion, particularly on asserting one's rights.
Personally, one of the things I find very admirable about Eldritch is his refusal (in public at least) to compromise when it comes to his work. This is very in line with Nietzche's concept of the artist (originally inspired by Wagner, no doubt, before the rift). I fully stand by the artist's right to control their work, regardless of the opinions of publishers/producers and fans. At the end of the day nobody is under any obligation to buy a CD, book or go and see a film.
IMHO being compared to Nietzsche's "superman" is a compliment. I would dearly love to say I'd never compromised myself for the sake of being able to pay my mortgage or other bills.
Hopefuly, you won't have to if your work enjoys some measure of success.

I wish you every success, both with your current book and maintaining your artistic integrity.

It's not going to be easy - the current generation of teenagers care less than any previous one.
But then, the Multinationals are "dumbing down" society.

On Jul 8, 2002 8:30pm, Erudite wrote:
@GS

Possibly some confusion, particularly on asserting one's rights.
Personally, one of the things I find very admirable about Eldritch is his refusal (in public at least) to compromise when it comes to his work. This is very in line with Nietzche's concept of the artist (originally inspired by Wagner, no doubt, before the rift). I fully stand by the artist's right to control their work, regardless of the opinions of publishers/producers and fans.

Of course the failing in the "superman" and therefore the Eldritch grand-plan

Ah!!! Now I see the parallels

I am on the verge of signing a book contract for 2 books. (had the formal offer, awaiting the drafting of the contract) When I start to write the first book I will write it as I wish it to be written. If my editor doesn't like it and I don't agree with his reasons why then it will be bye bye editor because it is MY work. If the publishing house doesn't like it and I don't agree with their reasons then it will be bye bye publishing house because it is MY work. If after having had the first book reach the public domian and I decide to the disdain of my 'fans' (getting ahead of myself I know ) that I don't want to do the second book in the style of the first, or I want a gap between the first coming out and the writing of the second, or that I actually don't want to write the second book then I'm afraid its tough on the fans because it is both MY work and MY life. Does this mean I fit a box labelled superman (hmmm, tempting) or does it just mean that this is a passion of MINE and I rightly want to have the ultimate control over it?

We have a superwoman on our midst

On Jul 7, 2002 10:12am, groupie smurph wrote:

Hmmm, hmmmm.......... I really am not into Nietzche or any other pseudo intellectual bollocks (relax folks, just my opinion, you can all like or dislike it as much as you wish, doesn't bother me

Aie, how can you call Nietzsche pseudo intellectual bollocks? Is there anything that's not pseudo intellectual bollocks then? Just curious to know your opinion

On Jul 8, 2002 11:32pm, Zigeunerweisen wrote:

Aie, how can you call Nietzsche pseudo intellectual bollocks? Is there anything that's not pseudo intellectual bollocks then? Just curious to know your opinion

usually, to dismiss something so easily, shows a certain fear or lack of understanding of a subject

I'm scared that one can study history and yet dismiss the working of the mind as "psuedo-intellectual bollocks".

how can you have a history without a history of tradition?

surely societal values and norms are based around these traditions?

*confused look*

On a different note, i was once talking to this guy and started to talk about Nietzsche and the guy goes "ah, you must be a right winged extremist" Grrrrrr what an idiot. Nietzsche is one of the most misunderstood philosophers.

Erm....Zig

as I understand it, the jury is still out on that one, his sister was involved in this someway, but the Nazi's did look to him and that's documented

.....and after all "they did have the best uniforms"

An interesting juxtaposition

Eldritch the man is apparently in the superman mould

But he refers the band, The Sisters Of Mercy as willing slaves to the record industry.

On Jul 9, 2002 10:57am, Ez wrote:

On a different note, I was once talking to this guy and started to talk about Nietzsche and the guy goes "ah, you must be a right winged extremist" Grrrrrr what an idiot. Nietzsche is one of the most misunderstood philosophers.

Erm....Zig

as I understand it, the jury is still out on that one, his sister was involved in this someway, but the Nazi's did look to him and that's documented

.....and after all "they did have the best uniforms"

The jury is only out if you can't handle philosophical algebra any more complex than:
The Nazi party appropriates some Nietzschean concepts (which, incidentally, they misunderstand), and by association Nietzsche becomes ideologically unsound. Therefore anyone who likes Nietzsche by extension of the same flawed logic must also share the Nazi's right wing attitudes and policies.
Believe that, and you may as well believe Mr Manson is responsible for the Columbine massacre.
And if we wish to talk about books often quoted and used to justify right wing extremism, I think you'll find The Bible is currently top of the list as the bigot's favourite reading matter.
The Nazi Party was a result of the social and economic situation in Germany after World war I. The country was being crippled by heavy restitution payments to the rest of Europe, resentment and hardship were rife, making it easy for a scapegoat to be selected.
This would have happened just the same, regardless of whether Nietzsche had ever published the concept of the "superman".
It should be noted that the only work ever used by right wing extremists is Thus Spake Zarathustra, which is also the only work to mention the concept of the Ubermensch
White supremacists are not in the habit quoting from the Gay Science or the Genealogy of Morals, nor even Human, All To Human.
The other issue, is that Hitler and his spin doctors were happy to appropriate anything that could be made to serve their cause – such as the interest in Teutonic myth and romanticism – should we also blame Wagner for the policies of the Nazi Party?
As for Nietzsche's sister, I need only point out that this is the woman who, after syphilis had driven her brother insane, dressed him in a white robe and exhibited him to tourists – doubtless in the role of the mad philosopher/poet Zarathustra. You can draw your own conclusions as to what sort of person Elizabeth was.


:mad:

But I will concede the nazi's did have the best uniforms.
_________________
Caught between two mirrors,
the soul reflects ad infinitum.
You watch the shadows dance,
form once more mistaken for substance.

<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Erudite on Jul 9, 2002 8:54pm ]</font>

"The other issue, is that Hitler and his spin doctors were happy to appropriate anything that could be made to serve their cause – such as the interest in Teutonic myth and romanticism – should we also blame Wagner for the policies of the Nazi Party?"

HA! BINGO. People will twist *anything* around to suit their rotten means... People *suck*. :mad:

[quote]
On Jul 9, 2002 8:51pm, Erudite wrote:
[quote]

such as the interest in Teutonic myth and romanticism – should we also blame Wagner for the policies of the Nazi Party?

As for Nietzsche's sister, I need only point out that this is the woman who, after syphilis had driven her brother insane, dressed him in a white robe and exhibited him to tourists – doubtless in the role of the mad philosopher/poet Zarathustra. You can draw your own conclusions as to what sort of person Elizabeth was.

----------------------

Eh! syphilis, are you sure I thought it was a combination of opium and becoming totally obsessed in his beliefs ??: . He broke down whilst hugging a horse; many think he didn't actually go insane, just chose to hide behind yet another mask!

As for elizabeth, well, she decided what should be published but this is not a matter of blame, but of national acceptance of his ideals, elizabeth encouraging Hitler to believe he was the superman her brother had written about

"I tremble when I think of all those who, without justification, without being ready for my ideas, will yet invoke my authority"

Still, very much in danger of reaching levels of "pseudo intellectual bollocks" again, so I'll stop now

Oh and btw Germany had started to adopt his ideas well before the Nazi party, infact during WW1


<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Ez on Jul 9, 2002 9:56pm ]</font>

I'm with Erudite. The Nazis only adopted his philosophy because he was german and was talking about a super race. Nietzsche suited the Nazis perfectly but people like the Nazis were exactly what Nietzsche was talking against. He wasn't talking about a physical superrace. If he had been, lets say american and black, a group of black racists could have adopted his teachings just as easily and yet the words would be exactly the same. It is easy to use things for your own purpose subverting the original meaning, willingly or unwillingly.

And i like Wagner as well.

And yes, it's true, they did have the best uniforms

<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Zigeunerweisen on Jul 10, 2002 1:10pm ]</font>

And i like Wagner as well.

me too, as you already know

quote @ zig..It is easy to use things for your own purpose subverting the original meaning, willingly or unwillingly.

and the door could be slightly ajar there for the Bible Zig....
most organised religions have used that for controlling millions
lets not open that one

On Jul 10, 2002 1:16pm, mikey wrote:.

and the door could be slightly ajar there for the Bible Zig....
most organised religions have used that for controlling millions
lets not open that one

Oh yes, let's open it
Aie the bible, the bible, i could ramble on and on about it, but it's not the poor book's fault really, what do they say? Guns don't kill people, people kill people

@ Zigeunerweisen

Mmmmmmmmm,

In the interests of good taste and sanity, lets not go there shall we...

Kierkegaard, Hegel, Wittgenstein, Nietzche, and sometimes even that Eldritch chappie are all rather interesting, but if you want to start discussing fairy stories i suggest you find a better place to do it, like the god-botherers-channel.com.

Don't make me hurt you...

<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Chairman Bux on Jul 10, 2002 11:30pm ]</font>

Yes mr super mod'er sir, sorry i misbehaved

On Jul 10, 2002 11:27pm, Chairman Bux wrote:
@ Zigeunerweisen

In the interests of good taste and sanity, lets not go there shall we...

Kierkegaard, Hegel, Wittgenstein, Nietzche, and sometimes even that Eldritch chappie are all rather interesting, but if you want to start discussing fairy stories i suggest you find a better place to do it, like the god-botherers-channel.com.


<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Chairman Bux on Jul 10, 2002 11:30pm ]</font>

Please, Mr Bux, sir, can we have another forum for those of us who feel the urge to stick the knife into Dubya, Blair, the Pope and the Multinationals?
Some of us need to show we care about the world by having a right good self-righteous moan.
It'll stop us contaminating the rest of Hearland's light hearted banter.
A place for everything and everything in its place.
Know what I mean?

We apologise for the inconvenience - back to the topic at hand.

The general consensus of opinion is that Eldritch does for good or ill fit the Nietzschean mould of the artist.
Now, I don't think for a minute that Von sits there trying to contrive a persona that positively reeks of being outside the accepted societal norm. It just so happens that his behaviour fits rather nicely within the bracket of Nietzsche's Ubermensch.
The next question that arises from this is whether or not the stage persona is separable from the man i.e. how much of Andrew Taylor is in Andrew Eldritch and vice versa. Where does Taylor the man end and Eldritch the performer begin?
Yes, this is pseudo intellectual bollocks, but it’s certainly helping pass my evening.
All theories to the Eldritch/Taylor question considered.
No purchase necessary to participate.


_________________
Caught between two mirrors,
the soul reflects ad infinitum.
You watch the shadows dance,
form once more mistaken for substance.

<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Erudite on Jul 11, 2002 8:11pm ]</font>

On Jul 11, 2002 7:58pm, Erudite wrote:

On Jul 10, 2002 11:27pm, Chairman Bux wrote:
@ Zigeunerweisen

In the interests of good taste and sanity, lets not go there shall we...

Kierkegaard, Hegel, Wittgenstein, Nietzche, and sometimes even that Eldritch chappie are all rather interesting, but if you want to start discussing fairy stories i suggest you find a better place to do it, like the god-botherers-channel.com.


<font size=1>[ This Message was edited by: Chairman Bux on Jul 10, 2002 11:30pm ]</font>

Please, Mr Bux, sir, can we have another forum for those of us who feel the urge to stick the knife into Dubya, Blair, the Pope and the Multinationals?
Some of us need to show we care about the world by having a right good self-righteous moan.
It'll stop us contaminating the rest of Hearland's light hearted banter.
A place for everything and everything in its place.
Know what I mean?

It would seem that general chat and sisters chat are not enough to contain the interests of our varied and merry (hic) band. A world politics and pseudo intellectual bollocks chat is long overdue!!! And, whilst on the subject, can I put in my vote for a frivolous food products chat?

With regard to Nietzschean Ubermensch....

Its the fish i feel sorry for....

Paddy.

Oh my god. Okay I was kinda joking with all that stuff up there about protecting my work but I guess its true as I've just turned down vast amounts of money to do a book more 'accessible' than the more scholarly version I had planned. Okay, I think I need to go lie down now....