Heartland

I went into my local music shop the other day to buy a Drum Machine.

The guy at the counter started telling me that I should buy a drum set because drum machines are rubbish and lack soul

We got into this big argument about which is better.

Which do you guys think is better "drummer" or "Drum Machine"

Depends what its for really innit...

A lot of bands I'm into use both, though quite often use drummers for live work..


As for "soul" thats not really necessary when you want to produce something a bit mechanoid...

What Gotter man said.

I'm well into my techno and love the relentlessness and precision of a well programmed machine. This underlies my views of music in general tbh, so pushed to make a decision?

Machine, every time.

ruffers wrote:What Gotter man said.

I'm well into my techno and love the relentlessness and precision of a well programmed machine. This underlies my views of music in general tbh, so pushed to make a decision?

Machine, every time.

Out of interest what kind of techno???

ruffers wrote:What Gotter man said.

I'm well into my techno and love the relentlessness and precision of a well programmed machine. This underlies my views of music in general tbh, so pushed to make a decision?

Machine, every time.

For a start the drum machine is to all intents and purposes so outdated you might as well try and plough a field with it.

In the intervening 20 years since it was considered a usefull piece of equipment there has been a small developement called "MIDI" and the subsequent rush of PC and MAC based recording / sequencing platforms like Cubase, Pro Tools and Logic. Even more to the point there are now systems like Reason and huge numbers of virtual instruments all of them infinataly more flexiable and intelligent than the hideous plonk of the likes of the Alesis SR16.

There is a market for the odd "classic" analogue drum machine like the 808 but this is, frankly, nerdism. There is no reason any sound cannot be sampled into your PC's harddrive provided your card and system are good enough and accessed via a softsampler. Theres a whole industry doing this very thing and the results are so manifold and wonderfull I'm amazed anyone can be unaware of them.

As for the "soul vs souless" argument...anyone who restricts themselves to one style of rhythmic execution needs to look good and hard at themselves. Would someone eat the same meal every night of their life or be content to watch the same TV program on repeat for ever ? Actually don't answer that one...

filthyrikky wrote:For a start the drum machine is to all intents and purposes so outdated you might as well try and plough a field with it.

I think drum machines are still very able to do the job... Look at for example The Kills, they use a drum machine, and they're fairly good, it brings them a very nice sound...

But when asked in interviews why they used drummachines (the interviewer said they were 'not rocky') instead of a drummer, they just gave some arguments as 'it doesn't throw up' and 'they don't do overdoses' instead it just crashes, and also a better argument 'it doesn't disturb the chemistry between the two of us'... So, in such a case, it could be a valuable option...

As for me, I think it just depends on what you personally want your sound to be like, and of course you can do it on your pc, I guess, but be honest, a home-pc on stage, it sure does look like s**t

Obviousman wrote:

filthyrikky wrote:For a start the drum machine is to all intents and purposes so outdated you might as well try and plough a field with it.

I think drum machines are still very able to do the job... Look at for example The Kills, they use a drum machine, and they're fairly good, it brings them a very nice sound...

But when asked in interviews why they used drummachines (the interviewer said they were 'not rocky') instead of a drummer, they just gave some arguments as 'it doesn't throw up' and 'they don't do overdoses' instead it just crashes, and also a better argument 'it doesn't disturb the chemistry between the two of us'... So, in such a case, it could be a valuable option...

As for me, I think it just depends on what you personally want your sound to be like, and of course you can do it on your pc, I guess, but be honest, a home-pc on stage, it sure does look like s**t

I'm not argauing I think against the use of technology if thats what suits a band. Personally I think a good drummer is the best option with some deferance to samples and programmin where suitable but there some bands for whom a drummer on stage simple can;t work I know.

But I maintain that drum machines only use these days tends to be kitsch appeal on stage and I bet as soon as the band gets in the studio the engineer say "put that away, let me reprogram the drums into logic, I've got a wicked plug in".

Actually few bands tend to use PC's on stage because they do crash. One option is to record elements your not going to play live on to a stable platform such as a digital audio recording station and synch it up via MIDI.

Err, as an ex-sticksman, I'd say drummer!

Norman Hunter wrote:Err, as an ex-sticksman, I'd say drummer!

Having had a quick think about it, I think my unreasonable hatred of drum machines stems down to the bottom line: they have caused catastrophic damage to the goth scene. OK the sisters used one, but if Von drove his shiny merc off beachy head would everone else just follow him ?

I know this because once upon a time I did it too.

But I got better and realised this: being a tribute act to your heroes is not the same as being influenced by them. In fact they are mutually exclusive. If the sisters taught us anything it's that the mould is there to be broken. How ironic then that they've inspired a generation of clonky, artless, vampire obsessed rubbish. No wonder Von is embarrassed,

Well said fr. However...

filtyhrikky wrote:if Von drove his shiny merc off beachy head would everone else just follow him ?

I wonder...

Maybe we should suggest it to him? "Hey, Von, I know it's a bit of a sacrifice on your part, but think of all the dodgy darklings you'd get rid of."

*Edited to add: Maybe driving off the cliffs at Whitby would be more appropriate?

humanoid drummers are generally overrated. (With the exception of the mighty Gene Hoglan. But if he's a human has yet to be proven.)
But for the funny grimaces onstage, who can replace them?

[quote="canon docre"]humanoid drummers are generally overrated quote]

Ever played drums..? Grrr...

canon docre wrote:humanoid drummers are generally overrated.

Ah c'mon. I'd like to see a drum machine that could do as well as John Bonham or Keith Moon. (OK they're both dead, but you get the idea.)

markfiend wrote: Well said fr. However...

filtyhrikky wrote:if Von drove his shiny merc off beachy head would everone else just follow him ?

I wonder...

Maybe we should suggest it to him? "Hey, Von, I know it's a bit of a sacrifice on your part, but think of all the dodgy darklings you'd get rid of."

ahem. most of the darklings wouldn't give a toss, i fear

Is a drummachine able to do a descent solo ?

I think, being a human drummer is a very hard job, which every job in music or involving creativity is, so I respect them...

And a synthesiser isn't exactly better sounding as all the instruments it replaces, and isn't a drummachine some sort of a really drumfocussed synth

emilystrange wrote:ahem. most of the darklings wouldn't give a toss, i fear

You know I didn't mean that kind of darkling!

hee i suppose so..

most of them are far too young.. not young like our Dark, but babyish. some have just told me that the tories have good policies, but they might vot BiP.
*head in hands*

emilystrange wrote:hee i suppose so..

most of them are far too young.. not young like our Dark, but babyish. some have just told me that the tories have good policies, but they might vot BiP.
*head in hands*

Ech... what this generation is lacking is some good old cold war style apocalyptic fear..

Feck when I was a kid the world could have ended at any time.. specially with that film actor in the white house...

i have TRIED to warn them... think they know it all...

I'm using a Drum Machine because I have a thing for retro machinary, plus the "Sisters" use a Drum Machine, everyone loves the Sisters.

Another reason I am using a Drum Machine is because there isn't anough space on stage and in rehearsal for a real drummer.

Another reason is because I have had bad experiance with real drummers.

I can't stand drum solos and I want a tight repetitive rythmn.

It's normally just me on my own and I recruit people to play, so it saves me the time of searching for a drummer that can play.

I am extremly influenced my minimalist composers like "Terry Riley" and "Philip Glass" and I want a tight repetitive hard drum beat.

I generally use two Guitars, one Organ/Keyboard and a Drum Machine for my songs.

I went threw a phase where all I used were synthesizers, but I stopped after I ended up sounding like a Kraftwerk tribute band.

Plus it's a real bitch to set up a drum kit.

Sorry, I was obviously supposed to distinguish between drum machines and other electronic drum noise makers. I only listen to the stuff.....

I like electronically generated drums.


Gottdammerung - What techno? Primarily proper Detroit stuff. I'm kind of livng in the past in a lot of my music but the old stuff is the best, although I did like a lot of the German Harthouse. Artists? Dunno. UK I liked Dave Angel's.

I see..

Stuff I tend to play is largely european techno, producers like Cari Lekebusch, Henrik B, Lars Klein etc etc.. along with some harder stuff by the likes of Glenn Wilson and stuff on labels such as Highball..


Though I have started picking up slightly older stuff from the mid 90s and have this crazed idea of trying to work out an industrial/techno set once I get my new set of decks.. using eighties industrial pitched against techno...

earache abounds!


postnote.. a good label to check out is Kiddaz.fm. a German label (Hannover I think) produces funky, vocal techno thats hard as nails when you put it out through a sound system...


Damn, I love having 10K to play out with!

ruffers wrote:Sorry, I was obviously supposed to distinguish between drum machines and other electronic drum noise makers. I only listen to the stuff.....

I like electronically generated drums.


Gottdammerung - What techno? Primarily proper Detroit stuff. I'm kind of livng in the past in a lot of my music but the old stuff is the best, although I did like a lot of the German Harthouse. Artists? Dunno. UK I liked Dave Angel's.

I suppose the gist of my argument is...why is how the drum sounds are generated so important ? The bottom line is that anyone worth their salt at the moment can conjure anything from the grittiest rock drum kit to the most pounding gabba kick imaginable from all sorts of sources. As such surely what an individual song benefits from marks what "source" is best per se.

Personally I feel the great thing about technology is that it has made distinction between genres potentially meaningless. Arguments like "live vs electronic" and "soul vs souless" belong to the past. The right way is always what benefits the material.

Getting back to drum machine, I'll concede they have their place but in the context of goth in particular I tend to be suspicious of them. Yes the sisters used them, but basically this was born of neccessity and reinforced by the developement of that bands own unique sound. I feel other guitar based acts who rely on a drum machine in preferance always have the whiff of plagiarism about them.

And I suppose since "electronic artists" tend NOT to use drum machines anymore then there is an important distinction therin.

I mean s**t, you won't find any bigger proponent of the works of Skinny Puppy, 242 or miriad others than me, but I simply don't associate the clanky old Boss DR7 et al with these artists.

I'm not in a "Goth Band".

There are very few "Goth Bands" that I like.

I never thought of "The Sisters Of Mercy" as a "Goth Band".

I used a Drum Machine once before and it worked with the songs minmalist sound very well.

I think I said this before, I'm extremly influenced by minimalist composers and my songs are very minimalistic in sound.

They tend to have a strage drone to them, I actually don't know what I would class the music as, But I would hate for it to be labeled "GOTHIC"

I also need a Drum Machine because the space I make music in is very small and the venues I play are small.

I'm a drummer by training, but I still prefer a drum machine (and use one for my band since I'm a guitar playing traitor ). Drum machines don't answer back, they don't have prior engagements when you wish to practice and they don't have a right to copyright credits on recorded material. As far as I see it, they're damn useful