Heartland

And the music of Joy Division is still alive...

indeed

and 5 years ago today i was at the witchwood in ashton-under-lyne awaiting my 2nd fave band the chameleons playing together live, after nearly 15 years apart

they dedicated one of their songs to mr curtis' memory. i cant remember which one though because i was still reeling after the intro to "swamp thing"

tOM wrote:And the music of Joy Division is still alive...

And to what extent is the latter due to the former?

If I understand your question (my English is not that good) : I guess joy division had a great influence on lots of bands like Moby, Massive Attack, Nine Inch Nails, Billy Corgan, Bloc Party, Franz Ferdinand, Interpol,Placebo,...

I think Francis means that JoyDivision would largely have been forgotten if Ian Curtis hadn't died.

I disagree, but that's what I think Francis means...

markfiend wrote:I think Francis means that JoyDivision would largely have been forgotten if Ian Curtis hadn't died.

Well yes. But it was more of a question than an assertion. Had anyone heard of them before he died?

I thought so. As far as I can remember, as a little kid I heard Love will tear us apart on the radiostation my dad listened to, but I didn't had a clue that the bands name was Joy Division (I was only 6 or 7 years old).
That, I discovered some years later. And I even discovered much later that he had committed suicide... So, the fact that he died had no influence on me to get to know their music. You can say the same thing about other people/bands... (Nirvana, Jeff Buckley...)

Francis wrote:Had anyone heard of them before he died?

Well I hadn't. But then again, I was 10.

when what we know as the original "goth" movement first started all bands around were being compared to JD by nme & melody maker.

have a read of that nme goth magazine from a few months back. check out early reviews of banshees, bauhas, sisters etc etc

jd were very infuential and a reference point for an entire genre.

according to mr marx even von was a fan

Quiff Boy wrote:according to mr marx even von was a fan

Could that be (well just assuming, but anyway) the/a reason why name 'the Sisters of Mercy' are/could be a reference to prostitution (well, I've read on several places the name is)
Because, the Joy Division name had something to do with prostitution too, didn't it?

Anyway, it's a shame Curtis died, I'm sure he would have made some great music otherwise...

Quiff Boy wrote:when what we know as the original "goth" movement first started all bands around were being compared to JD by nme & melody maker.

Quiff Boy wrote:jd were very infuential and a reference point for an entire genre.

But I'm sure that was after he died. Joy Division were never referred to as goth at the time. Only after he topped himself and what with that and the imagery of Closer there's this whole death fascination built up around him.

Quiff Boy wrote:check out early reviews of banshees, bauhas, sisters etc etc

The first two may have bumped into them on the circuit. The Sisters were obviously later.

Quiff Boy wrote:according to mr marx even von was a fan

No doubt, but then Eldritch was a John Peel listener, NME reader and knew which names to drop.

Obviousman wrote:
Because, the Joy Division name had something to do with prostitution too, didn't it?

Yep, the name "Joy Division" came from the german "Lust Division" which were the prostitues in the camps of the nazi's (or am I wrong ?). Don't know if they were jewish and forced to prostitute (looks more like rape then ?) themselves, or if it were prostitues who came to the camps to please the nazi's. And I even don't know if it was in WW I or WW II. There will probably some info on the net about it...

Obviousman wrote: Anyway, it's a shame Curtis died, I'm sure he would have made some great music otherwise...

Shouldn't you be away revising?

As I should....

Anyway: I do agree that it's a shame he died, but on the other hand, if I consider all the other bands from that period (or rather: from said Gothic Issue): Most of them either don't exist anymore or have descended to complete irrelevance by now: Siouxie? Bauhaus? The Sisters?
or, worse: The Cure?

Sorry, I'm a cynic in this regard, but I doubt that Joy Division would have had a different future. And I say this regardless of the fact that their descendants, New Order, are alive and kicking. For me New Order are a completely different band and nowhere near JD...

And I also think that the world has moved on, I mean: The gothic music of today is very different to the one of 15 or 20 years ago. Maybe the people who become goths today have a different feeling for life than the people of 20 years ago? I say this because the gothic music of today is not at all to my taste, but I think it's unfair to say it used to be better 20 years ago. I think it was just different, probably also expressed something different, I don't know. Anyway, something has changed in the meantime I s'pose...

Eva wrote:Most of them either don't exist anymore or have descended to complete irrelevance by now: Siouxie? Bauhaus? The Sisters?
or, worse: The Cure?

Yet another 'benefit' of him topping himself so early on on their 'career'.

Eva wrote:The gothic music of today is very different to the one of 15 or 20 years ago. Maybe the people who become goths today have a different feeling for life than the people of 20 years ago? I say this because the gothic music of today is not at all to my taste, but I think it's unfair to say it used to be better 20 years ago. I think it was just different, probably also expressed something different, I don't know. Anyway, something has changed in the meantime I s'pose...

Yeah, agreed. I have mentioned before that early goth stuff actually had a bit of humour in it, such as bands like Birthday Party, Alien Sex Fiend, Virgin Prunes and the Sisters.

It's funny, just earlier today I was thinking that 18 May had relevance for some reason. Now I know. And I saw New Order on the fifth annniversary of Curtis's death. They were playing in a big white beach-front venue with swaying palm-trees out the front. So yeah, things have changed a bit.

tOM wrote:

Obviousman wrote:
Because, the Joy Division name had something to do with prostitution too, didn't it?

Yep, the name "Joy Division" came from the german "Lust Division" which were the prostitues in the camps of the nazi's (or am I wrong ?). Don't know if they were jewish and forced to prostitute (looks more like rape then ?) themselves, or if it were prostitues who came to the camps to please the nazi's. And I even don't know if it was in WW I or WW II. There will probably some info on the net about it...

A mixture of both, there's even a book based on one woman's experience of the whole thing. Read it many years ago...........

Francis wrote:But I'm sure that was after he died. Joy Division were never referred to as goth at the time. Only after he topped himself and what with that and the imagery of Closer there's this whole death fascination built up around him.

There's an interview from 'Something Else' (when they did "She's Lost...." and "Transmission" with Tony Wilson and Steven Morris. Tony describes their music as "gothic" and bemoans the fact they don't get enough radioplay, etc.

(Sorry Francis, but I'm often shocked at the things that I can remember!)

they'll be showing that interview on the big screen in manchester tonight

gutted i cant go. got another early start tomorrow morning...

Quiff Boy wrote: in ashton-under-lyne awaiting

Nothing extra to say re Ian Curtis RIP, but Ashton Under Lyne is where I was born and raised....

ruffers wrote:

Quiff Boy wrote: in ashton-under-lyne awaiting

Nothing extra to say re Ian Curtis RIP, but Ashton Under Lyne is where I was born and raised....

blimey! where abouts?

i'm from oldham. my mate is from ashton & currently lives in droylesden. and the ex mrs qb is from ashton.

center of the world innit?

Quiff Boy wrote:

indeed

and 5 years ago today i was at the witchwood in ashton-under-lyne awaiting my 2nd fave band the chameleons playing together live, after nearly 15 years apart

they dedicated one of their songs to mr curtis' memory. i cant remember which one though because i was still reeling after the intro to "swamp thing"

FIVE YEARS AGO!!!!!!!! flippin Ada - doesn't time fly

6Music are having an ICfest all day today

Debaser wrote:

Quiff Boy wrote:

indeed

and 5 years ago today i was at the witchwood in ashton-under-lyne awaiting my 2nd fave band the chameleons playing together live, after nearly 15 years apart

they dedicated one of their songs to mr curtis' memory. i cant remember which one though because i was still reeling after the intro to "swamp thing"

FIVE YEARS AGO!!!!!!!! flippin Ada - doesn't time fly

i know

And look what's happened in those five years......possibly the best five years of my life.

Debaser wrote:And look what's happened in those five years......possibly the best five years of my life.

indeed. the start of some very good things, non?