Page 1 of 5
Can YOU change the world?
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 12:44
by Rosalie
I got torn into quite a bit for an opinion I held on a forum that everyone misinterpretd because they like to look down on people.
Basically, it was all about image and all that, and people who are pose with one group of people then suddenly switch over to being "normal" or whatever else their friends have grown into at a certain age, even when they already have a stable job and have no reason to do anything but to fit in and pose with yet another group and how I found it a little annoying and wished people would make their own minds up on things more.
People of course accused me of being an anarchist punk little kiddy whose views they all had before and grew out of, and that I was the poser who only dressed up to fit in because I couldn't express myself with my personality, and various other comments to make them feel superior to me, and missed the point entirely, and thought I was criticisng them because they didn't dress or look quite as funky as they did as they got tired of it, when I was only criticisng people who flip over completely solely for the sake of fitting in and nothing more(there's plenty of them), but people don't like listening to things that aren't in their head very often.
But that's usually not the greatest argument to have, the most interesting point that was raised was that you can't change the world unless you're clean cut and in a suit, which I then tore apart on many levels (Which was obviously ignored).
What do you think to this? I think it's a fallacy, as what ever you're fighting for when you do that, you're also further spreading the ideal that only clean cut guys in suits can change the world. If you shout hard enough, you'll be heard.
This is refinorncing taking people for face value, which is the source of so many of the world's problems, IMO.
Instead, if you go half way, you'll achieve wonderful things.
You can change the world looking a bit different, it just takes a little more effort, effort which people aren't willing to make. They prefer to just look the part, even if they miss the point that if you manage to get heard, you'll also be showing that even people that look a bit different to everyone else have strong ideals and messages to spread, and play down the stereotype of "rebel without a cause". Plus, it's an issue of trust, people learn too readily to trust people in suits who look clean and fancy. Bad, bad idea.
This is all my opinion anyway. I like to gather views on these things, and hope that once in a while I might get someone that gives me some small level of faith in humanity.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 12:52
by markfiend
I'm not saying it's right but people
do trust "a man in a suit".
If there's opposition to a road-building project, which are people more likely to listen to; a hippy with dreadlocks and a dog on a string camping in the trees to stop them being cut down, or Colonel H. P. J. Bufton-Tufton (retired) who doesn't want his roses ploughed up for the new motorway?
I agree with you that it's not right, but it's the way the world works.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:02
by Rosalie
Yeah, but at the same time the world isn't static either, and the hippie with dreadloks doesn't have to permanently change his appearance just to look believable once in a while. Remember Zach De La Rocha at the UN? Hippie with Dreadlocks. Everyone knows he doesn't normally wear suits, but he still got taken somewhat seriously.
Different people are becoming accepted. We're at the stage where if we can hope to move forward, we need to make it so everyone can lend a hand without compromising themselves. Many people dismiss any "liberal" opinions very readily.
It wouldn't just be a suit in that case, the Hippie would have to undergo a complete indentity change, which is a terribly fake thing to do and will end up having as many negative effects as positive, but some people do it.
As cute as I think Daleks are(who have a billion variations anyway), I don't think humans should strive to look all the same.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:04
by Ed Rhombus
Get your hair cut hippy!
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:09
by Rosalie
I hear that far too often, even though my hair is only a few inches past my shoulders and dyed various shades of red. It is rather large though. When I get money next summer I'll probably get extensions down to my waist.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:13
by boudicca
I like a man in a suit.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:15
by ruffers
Which is worse, not getting anywhere because you don't wear a suit, or achieving what you want by putting one on? Without wishing to sound like our beloved Prime Minister talking about Europe the only real way you can make siginificant change and have influence in most areas is from within. So you play the game to achieve it, is it that much of a problem? Idealism vs results.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:17
by Rosalie
Which is worse, not getting anywhere because you don't wear a suit, or achieving what you want by putting one on?
But the longer you do that, the longer only people in suits can make a difference, and the longer people will take people for face value, thus defeating the point of 90% of what you're trying to achieve, presumably, in the first place.
It's a circle that needs to be broken, as it only leads to corrupt fuckers who *look* trustable getting power.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:23
by scotty
It's a fact that if you want to change anything,first you have to be listned to,so buy a suit,cut your hair
and change what you want to!,you can always grow it again.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:27
by ruffers
Rosalie wrote:Which is worse, not getting anywhere because you don't wear a suit, or achieving what you want by putting one on?
But the longer you do that, the longer only people in suits can make a difference, and the longer people will take people for face value, thus defeating the point of 90% of what you're trying to achieve, presumably, in the first place.
.
Who are these "people" who are taking "people" at face value then?
Not me, whatever they wear.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:29
by Black Dahlia
"One has to first enter a room in order to destroy it"
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:33
by emilystrange
they'll trust the one who looks like he/she has money.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:43
by Quiff Boy
infiltrate and subvert
far more productive that standing on the outside waving burning torches and blowing whistles.
and you dont need black hair and pointy boots to be a goth.
though it helps
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:46
by Eva
Black Dahlia wrote:"One has to first enter a room in order to destroy it"
Nicely put! I'd have said something similar: If you want to win, you have to fight the enemy with his/her own weapons.
One can change the world, and it doesn't necessarily take a suit to do so, depending on where you want to start. I think the main thing is to live according to one's own ideals before one starts to lecture other people. Infact I think lecturing other people doesn't help much at all unless they ask for your opinion on anything.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:51
by Rosalie
ruffers wrote:Rosalie wrote:Which is worse, not getting anywhere because you don't wear a suit, or achieving what you want by putting one on?
But the longer you do that, the longer only people in suits can make a difference, and the longer people will take people for face value, thus defeating the point of 90% of what you're trying to achieve, presumably, in the first place.
Who are these "people" who are taking "people" at face value then?
Not me, whatever they wear.
Well, I'm not sure either
The general public I suppose. But they obviously do exist.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 13:56
by Rosalie
scotty wrote:It's a fact that if you want to change anything,first you have to be listned to,so buy a suit,cut your hair
and change what you want to!,you can always grow it again.
Some people don't care, but others, including me, have a very, very strong emotional attatchment to their hair.
It's much easier just to tie it up or buy a wig, though. People are too used to "cutting it" by cutting it.
And yes, hair does grow back. 2-6 years later. Hair doesn't grow as fast for most people as you might think, and there's no guarantee you'll ever be able to grow it back. I used to have very short hair, ated it, it's still only a few inches below my shoulder. 6 years is a long time with hair you hate. Trust me. My hair grows slow. If I had my hair to my waist, it would take about 6 years to grow it from a neat "professional" chin length style. I'm getting extentions but it's not a real substitute, I'll still grow it out.
I think you're still quite missing the point that if someone managed to get listened to looking different, there wouldn't be need for this. But nobody tries. Is it not worth it or something? Do people much rather that everything is done at face value?
"One has to first enter a room in order to destroy it"
Not necessarily true, and you can always enter a room without having to meet it's exact requirements. If you work hard, you can achieve things without having to entirely conform to the "inside's" standards.
and you dont need black hair and pointy boots to be a goth.
though it help
And you don't need to not have them just to prove you don't, either
That's something we're far more guilty of these days
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 14:20
by nick the stripper
boudicca wrote:I like a man in a suit.
I don't care what you say Rosalie, I'm buying a suit.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 14:21
by ruffers
Rosalie wrote:
"One has to first enter a room in order to destroy it"
Not necessarily true, and you can always enter a room without having to meet it's exact requirements. If you work hard, you can achieve things without having to entirely conform to the "inside's" standards.
So can you or can't you change things without conforming? Which is it? If you want to change something that much then sacrificing a haircut is no sacrifice at all.
So it comes down to how much one wants to change it really. "Am I prepared to wear a suit and get a haircut to change things from within."
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 14:28
by Obviousman
nick the stripper wrote:boudicca wrote:I like a man in a suit.
I don't care what you say Rosalie, I'm buying a suit.
And more on topic: I'd very much agree with the 'you can only change from within' opinion... Sometimes it is hard, and you'll have to give away some credibility, but the return can be so much bigger as when you're just protesting while you just
know you'll never get anywhere...
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 14:32
by Ed Rhombus
Two rules of the universe
1) Suits rock
2) Hippies smell
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 14:36
by markfiend
Rosalie wrote:Many people dismiss any "liberal" opinions very readily.
Well yeah. And they don't need the excuse of how someone with liberal views might look. Just read Noam Chomsky.
What's the best way of getting your opinions dismissed? Come onto TV looking like a complete weirdo. Especially since most politics is done in an adversarial way not as a consensus. All your opponent need do is say "Don't listen to her she's a right scruff".
OK, it's not a rational argument, but
it works. Society judges people by appearance. Get over it.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 15:28
by Rosalie
So can you or can't you change things without conforming? Which is it? If you want to change something that much then sacrificing a haircut is no sacrifice at all.
So it comes down to how much one wants to change it really. "Am I prepared to wear a suit and get a haircut to change things from within."
I think you're missing the point, still. As long as only "normal" people try to do things, it will only be "normal" people that will be trusted. That's why people need to keep at least a little of their odd appearance, and step it up. That way nobody will outright smack them down, it will just cause people to talk. And before you know it, they do look a bit on the odd side, but they've already made it so it doesn't matter.
Why don't people even try that? They "play the system from the inside" by conforming to it and staying that way, forever. Hardly playing the system, it's more allowing *it* to play you.
Quite frankly, you also have to consider if the people who are judging you so readily are the ones that will listen to you, anyway.
No, I'm never cutting my hair for something like that, nor should it be a measure of determination. It's *harder*, not impossible. Nobody has presented anything solid contrary to that claim. Celebrities can get away with it - so technically, it's possible to do it if you become a celebrity some way or another, first, but that's only one way.
If you come on telly and talk intelligently and knowledgably about a subject while looking a bit odd - aren't people going to be shocked? Isn't that going to make the few that don't immediately turn off sit up and listen? If you can present your views in an extremely solid and intelligent way, it shouldn't matter as much how you look, and if you're doubly smart, you could use the controversy over your massive hair and frilly clothes to your advantage.
People *do* judge by apperance, but not everyone can ignore someone who is skilled and intelligent at what they do.
Nobody even bloody well tries. Or very few, rather. Well f**k that, as soon as I'm out of college *I'm* going to try.
I consider it worth it since one of the main things I'm fighting for is for acceptance of people no matter their appearance or lifestyle.
At the very least, I'm not going to wear a suit. I refuse to give in to shallow judgements of perception.
"get over it" is exactly what causes someone to ignore a problem and think it can be dealth with.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 15:33
by Thea
Rosalie wrote:So can you or can't you change things without conforming? Which is it? If you want to change something that much then sacrificing a haircut is no sacrifice at all.
So it comes down to how much one wants to change it really. "Am I prepared to wear a suit and get a haircut to change things from within."
I think you're missing the point, still. As long as only "normal" people try to do things, it will only be "normal" people that will be trusted. That's why people need to keep at least a little of their odd appearance, and step it up. That way nobody will outright smack them down, it will just cause people to talk. And before you know it, they do look a bit on the odd side, but they've already made it so it doesn't matter.
Why don't people even try that? They "play the system from the inside" by conforming to it and staying that way, forever. Hardly playing the system, it's more allowing *it* to play you.
Quite frankly, you also have to consider if the people who are judging you so readily are the ones that will listen to you, anyway.
No, I'm never cutting my hair for something like that, nor should it be a measure of determination. It's *harder*, not impossible. Nobody has presented anything contrary to that claim.
Damn right.
Huzzah for interesting people
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 15:35
by Rosalie
Right. Different people rock. You don't cut off your hair and throw away your clothes to get "into the room", you just dress up a bit normal-but-fancy, tie up your hair, then when you have people listening to you - boom, you can do what the f**k you like, it will probably get their attention more in the end anyway. THAT'S working the system, none of this "Oh I was a punk I must be a lawyer now" crap. You don't have to dress different to be the different, but you don't have to go to efforts not to just to prove that, either.
Not everyone has to stand out all the time - any freak can easily look somewhat passable without having to make permanent changes, and if people believes them, nobody except the people that didn't like them anyway and the usual anal bastards cares if they stop doing so.
People *love* to jump into what they hate just to prove they can do it, and to not have to put up with all the baggage that comes with it, instead of just dealing with it instead.
It's just natural human fear of their own abilities - can I really do this if I stand out?
People work best being themselves, and always have. A smith happy being a smith is going to be hard pushed to make as good a tailor.
It's nearly always the same bloody people, both actually and logically, that dislike thsoe who don't don all suits and look like a "pro", that halt progress. Sometimes the only way is to act as a battering ram to keep bashing things into their heads until they give up trying to fight decent people.
Posted: 21 Jul 2005, 15:45
by markfiend
Look, I'm not disagreeing with you and I'm sorry if you took offence at the "Get over it" line. It was a bit of a throwaway remark and I regret it now.
The funny thing is, I'm sitting here with my hair (that hasn't been cut in maybe 15 years) tied back in a pony-tail, with my piercings in, wearing black T-shirt and jeans, working for a pretty decent wage as a graphic designer (when I'm not pi$$ing about on the Internet).
So yeah, I haven't had to compromise (well, other than tying the hair back) and I'm doing OK. I'm "in the room" I guess.