Heartland

Well, will it?.

Naw.

Maybe.

Who is it? It's not Carol Thatcher is it?

No, it's BORIS!

Or it should be.

Now that would make a difference.

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The difference is being made, but not by the Tories. As in 1997 a long-running government is slowly but surely making itself unelectable.

The only question is whether the Tories will be able to take advantage as decisively as Blair did, or whether the Lib Dems can lever themselves into the equation. Cameron's task is to ensure former Labour supporters tick his box and not Kennedy's.

Labour will lose the next election, regardless of Blair or Brown.

a bold prediction mr mackem. at the risk of being equally bold, i think brown's labour party will cling on for another term with a substantially reduced majority (twenty at most). given that the tories need to take around eighty seats from labour just to become the largest party i suspect that a hung parliament is the next most likely outcome. which is when things get really interesting. as for the lib dems, they will struggle to build upon their success last time out given that they were boosted by a lot of anti-war protest votes and the cameroons are already cosying up to the lib dems so-called orange book group.

in regards to the original question, i hope so. our system of parliamentary democracy needs a strong opposition to keep governments of whatever political hue in check. this is more vital than ever as the current government continue their work to undermine and demolish our civil liberties under the smokescreen of the war on terror.

The problem is, many if not most people who hate New Labour on doctrinal grounds hate it because it's too right-wing, no? And it's hard to see how even an effectively run Tory party is going to do much about that. I hear whispers that Cameron's Tories will campaign on global poverty and the environment. If so, excellent. I just can't imagine the Tories dragging Labour significantly to the left, and so for me, the chances of progress there look slim.

As for the election, I'm also sceptical about the Tories' chances. Cameron is a nice new face, but wait till you see the museum pieces in his shadow cabinet...

aye, i'm with richey on this one. the lib dems need to capitolise on labours mistakes... sadly i dont think quite have the nouse to take advantage in the same cynical way the the tory pary will.

(new) labour's shift more to the center (right?) is laughable, and their introducing policies that arent that far removed from what the tory party did in the 80s are inexcusable, and must be shocking for "old" labour politicians to watch...

i especially love it though when tory MPs decry labour's antics and bemoan the state of the nation, when 99% of the time its exactly what their party would have done, or indeed did do, before tony got in! and its their party that screwed the country over and put it us in the s**t position we're in now, through years of thatcherism...

when i say "laughable" i obviously mean "cryable"

Quiff Boy wrote:aye, i'm with richey on this one. the lib dems need to capitolise on labours mistakes... sadly i dont think quite have the nouse to take advantage in the same cynical way the the tory pary will.

(new) labour's shift more to the center (right?) is laughable, and their introducing policies that arent that far removed from what the tory party did in the 80s are inexcusable, and must be shocking for "old" labour politicians to watch...

i especially love it though when tory MPs decry labour's antics and bemoan the state of the nation, when 99% of the time its exactly what their party would have done, or indeed did do, before tony got in! and its their party that screwed the country over and put it us in the s**t position we're in now, through years of thatcherism...

when i say "laughable" i obviously mean "cryable"

Spot on.

But I have no problem with some of those old labour politicians receiving a shock (whatever form it may take).

If Labour have swung too far to the right with their policies then where do you expect the Tories to swing, the left?? Frying oan then fire, surely. This Labour government aren't half as evil as the last government and I would personally rather see anarchy than another term of tory arrogance and ignorance

MrChris wrote:I hear whispers that Cameron's Tories will campaign on global poverty and the environment. If so, excellent.

there have indeed been indications that cameron wants to move his party in those directions. they've also been pretty explicit about ruling out any ideas of campaigning on immigration which also bodes well. i'm also intrigued to see what his stance on drugs is given that he's pretty much admitted to taking cocaine whilst at university.

that all leads us to the really interesting question: if cameron's as good as his word and creates a leftish, modern, compassionate conservative party with policies on things like poverty, the environment, etc that you agree with would and their policies on things like public spending remain broadly in line with what labour are doing now, would you vote for him? or will he still be an evil tory bastard? given that his speech yesterday included a symbolic break with thatcherism ("there is such a thing as society") are you prepared to confront your own prejudices and make a considered choice based on policy?

That's a hard question. Thankfully, the assembled blue-rinsed and bigoted brigades of the anti-revolution - sorry, the party members - would never go for it. I don't think the phrase 'wake up and smell the coffee' works for over-70s...

quite.

a.r.kane wrote:This Labour government aren't half as evil as the last government

really? since 1997 the labour government has (amongst other things):

1. introduced tuition and top-up fees;
2. introduced asbos criminalising almost any behaviour on the flimsiest of evidence;
3. detained individuals indefinitely without charge or trial;
4. pushed for the introduction of id cards;
5. presided over successive increases in council tax above both inflation and average earnings;
6. privatised the london underground;
7. increased the number of schools and hospitals built and run under pfi schemes.

and that's without considering the ugly mess that is the current anti-terrorism bill. i'm not trying to say that the current government has done no good nor that the last tory government did no wrong but i find it difficult to argue that one is more "evil" (terrible word anyway, awfully irresponsible to try to use it any serious debate) than the other.

MrChris wrote:That's a hard question. Thankfully, the assembled blue-rinsed and bigoted brigades of the anti-revolution - sorry, the party members - would never go for it. I don't think the phrase 'wake up and smell the coffee' works for over-70s...

err... who exactly do you think the 134,446 tory party members who voted for cameron are? anway stop dodging the question!

RicheyJames wrote:

1. introduced tuition and top-up fees;
2. introduced asbos criminalising almost any behaviour on the flimsiest of evidence;
3. detained individuals indefinitely without charge or trial;
4. pushed for the introduction of id cards;
5. presided over successive increases in council tax above both inflation and average earnings;
6. privatised the london underground;
7. increased the number of schools and hospitals built and run under pfi schemes.

1. while increasing the number of young people moving into higher and further education to record levels ... and ensuring the drain is not on the state as a whole but on those who benefit from the education they receive.

2. ... to respond to the very real fears communities have about the behaviour of some groups. The question is whether those fears are rational: in my paper I read a survey recently about a 'no-go' area in Southend, with people talking about how they didn't feel safe going out after dark. Then I realised it was two streets away from my flat. Maybe they're scared of me! Otherwise I'm baffled.

3 and 4. no defence. Especially not ID cards given the massive cost and negligible benefit.

5. ... by refusing to kow-tow to over ambitious town halls wanting to spend ever greater slices of taxpayers money, and (according to local authorities round here) continuing to devote the bulk of its spending towards the northern communities gutted by the Thatcher-inspired industrial collapse we've already demonised instead of pouring more funds into the already affluent stockbroker belt.

6 and 7. ... as the only way to generate much-needed investment into our public services without hitting the users of those services squarely in the pocket. Where else would West Middlesex Hospital have got £50million for a full rebuild, if not from PFI?

I'm not necessarily endorsing all of those defences, but you could argue most of the 'evils' you've put forward have been beneficial.

And otherwise I'm just stirring

I still stand by my claim that this government is becoming unelectable: after a certain time people just want a change. The only question is whether there's an electable alternative.

I fail to see how another middle-class, middle-aged English tory with an Eton education can be any different to his predecessors.
And I'd agree that Labour's 7 sins ^^^ are out of order (3 & 4 are particularly offensive ) but I still consider Labour to be the lesser of 2 evils...
Personally, I say give the ginger fella a chance!

s**t, I missed the Southend quote!
You live near York Road or the Kursall Andy?

czuczu wrote:s**t, I missed the Southend quote!
You live near York Road or the Kursall Andy?

Neither. I'm up near the football ground. Not an area I'd every imagine as being above average dodgy, though there is a cemetery close by.

Naturally when I was house-hunting I swerved the Kursall and York Rd stretches. Apparently people round there are afraid to walk the streets at night. Must be scary.

andymackem wrote:

czuczu wrote:s**t, I missed the Southend quote!
You live near York Road or the Kursall Andy?

Neither. I'm up near the football ground. Not an area I'd every imagine as being above average dodgy, though there is a cemetery close by.

Naturally when I was house-hunting I swerved the Kursall and York Rd stretches. Apparently people round there are afraid to walk the streets at night. Must be scary.

My old stomping ground! There's nothing wrong with it round there & the chippy by St Mary's is the best in town!
I've got 1st hand experience of how bad it can get down the other end of town - it is as bad they say...

Apologies for interrupting the political hoohah with a bit of parochial chat!

[quote="RicheyJames since 1997 the labour government has (amongst other things):

1. introduced tuition and top-up fees;
2. introduced asbos criminalising almost any behaviour on the flimsiest of evidence;
3. detained individuals indefinitely without charge or trial;
4. pushed for the introduction of id cards;
5. presided over successive increases in council tax above both inflation and average earnings;
6. privatised the london underground;
7. increased the number of schools and hospitals built and run under pfi schemes.

and that's without considering the ugly mess that is the current anti-terrorism bill. i'm not trying to say that the current government has done no good nor that the last tory government did no wrong but i find it difficult to argue that one is more "evil" (terrible word anyway, awfully irresponsible to try to use it any serious debate) than the other.[/quote]

Valid points, all of which the tories agree with.
The tories destroyed what was left of Democracy with their responce to the miners strike and also sold the country to private investors until there was no country left to govern, only police. Politics is now even more an international business than ever before. Voting is like betting on the horses - they aren't running for you.
I don't think using the word eveil is irresponsible in the face of what thatcher and her gestapo inflicted on this nation and other nations with the trade embargoes she instigated along with the american administration.

a.r.kane wrote:[quote="RicheyJames since 1997 the labour government has (amongst other things):

1. introduced tuition and top-up fees;
2. introduced asbos criminalising almost any behaviour on the flimsiest of evidence;
3. detained individuals indefinitely without charge or trial;
4. pushed for the introduction of id cards;
5. presided over successive increases in council tax above both inflation and average earnings;
6. privatised the london underground;
7. increased the number of schools and hospitals built and run under pfi schemes.

and that's without considering the ugly mess that is the current anti-terrorism bill. i'm not trying to say that the current government has done no good nor that the last tory government did no wrong but i find it difficult to argue that one is more "evil" (terrible word anyway, awfully irresponsible to try to use it any serious debate) than the other.

Valid points, all of which the tories agree with.
The tories destroyed what was left of Democracy with their responce to the miners strike and also sold the country to private investors until there was no country left to govern, only police. Politics is now even more an international business than ever before. Voting is like betting on the horses - they aren't running for you.
I don't think using the word eveil is irresponsible in the face of what thatcher and her gestapo inflicted on this nation and other nations with the trade embargoes she instigated along with the american administration.[/quote]

Agree totally. I remember being a naive 17 year old when Labour were elected. All they've done since is carry on where the Tories left off. They've even taken the country to another Gulf War.

So if I'm getting this right the UK's major right-wing party is predicted to have a swing to the left

Very odd, as the 'natural' movement all over Europe is that everything is moving over to the right... But then again it could just be because your left-wing party swung to the right-wing side too far...