Heartland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4649606.stm

democracy is a wonderful thing...and one man's terrorist is simply another's freedom fighter.
it strikes me as ridiculous that fatah have said they won't go into coalition with hamas. it's detrimental to the palestinian cause for them to refuse to do so because if the israelis and the americans refuse to acknowledge a democratically elected palestinaian government then it will have been a pointless process.
surely the liberation of palestine is a more important issue than internal politics - just like the unionists scupperring the irish peace process at every oppurtunity because they won't willingly sit down with the ira. not that i have a public opinion on ireland, being half-irish.

One can hardly blame the Palestinians, given the corruption endemic in the Fatah party. There was something on the news last night; some town elected a Hamas mayor and within a couple of months he'd got them running water and electricity, something the previous Fatah mayor had been unable to accomplish in several years in office, largely due to accepting personal kickbacks in exchange for looking the other way when taxes weren't paid.

i'm sure nobody with a sense of fair-play would blame or deny the palestinians anything. a friend of mrswhizz's was out there recently in gaza and despite having heard variations on her stories from other witnesses it brings it home to you when someone is sat in your front room relating how they were stood yards from a child shot dead by soldiers...and it didn't even make the news.

Ah, well, there's innocent people on both sides, Jewish and Palestinian, but too many of their leaders only focus on hatred, sadly

Anyway, as Lee said, one man's terrorist is another one's freedom fighter, and I guess there are examples of terrorist movements turning into respected political parties, like the ANC in South Africa (though I don't know how they're coping these days, guess someone else on here has more expertise on that ).

It's the ever lasting spiral of revenge that damages minds on both sides. Hamas has its good sides, like what Mark said, but they're also still training little kids to become warriors, which is something you never should allow, however good the cause is.

Still, especially as a country claiming to 'spread democracy around the world', like the US does, you simply cannot deny any result of any election IMO.

Obviousman wrote:Ah, well, there's innocent people on both sides, Jewish and Palestinian, but too many of their leaders only focus on hatred, sadly

Still, especially as a country claiming to 'spread democracy around the world', like the US does, you simply cannot deny any result of any election IMO.

of course you're right about the innocent victims being of both sides and i have no desire either to give anyone stupid enough to accuse me of anti-semeticism the oppurtunity to do so...however although it may be americas professed crusade to spread world democracy it isn't israel's, and if they won't work with a democratically elected "terrorist organisation " then i can't see the u.s. pulling them into line.

Obviousman wrote:but they're also still training little kids to become warriors, which is something you never should allow, however good the cause is.

Granted.

Obviousman wrote:Still, especially as a country claiming to 'spread democracy around the world', like the US does, you simply cannot deny any result of any election IMO.

Just watch them...

Palestine for the "axis of evil" anyone?

Obviousman wrote: Anyway, as Lee said, one man's terrorist is another one's freedom fighter, and I guess there are examples of terrorist movements turning into respected political parties, like the ANC in South Africa (though I don't know how they're coping these days, guess someone else on here has more expertise on that ).

Allegations of fraud, corruption, rape and squandering tax payer's money. And that's just the deputy president s(past and present). Same as everywhere else then

I've only just realised that your avatar doesn't say "Free Annoying", Lucien

markfiend wrote:I've only just realised that your avatar doesn't say "Free Annoying", Lucien

Not an Arrested Development fan, are you?

Won't be surprised if they'd put Palestine into the axis of evil, I guess they were on the edge of doing that with Arafat already The US government has way too much to loose (voters and capital) on the Jews, so I'm affraid they'd never put as much pressure on them as they put on the Palestinians.

It's easier to sit on the side and say 'see, told ya' instead of trying to talk with people and persuade them there are better things to do instead of getting 100 more killed.

hallucienate wrote: Not an Arrested Development fan, are you?

i for one am not- it was "mr. wendel" that did it. that and making ten million of their pain-in-the-arse tour neck-tie-thong-things.

derailed in less than a dozen...surely that wins us the j.mernor prize for callous insensitivity to suffering.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:

hallucienate wrote: Not an Arrested Development fan, are you?

i for one am not- it was "mr. wendel" that did it. that and making ten million of their pain-in-the-arse tour neck-tie-thong-things.

derailed in less than a dozen...surely that wins us the j.mernor prize for callous insensitivity to suffering.

Sorry Lee, you got the Wrong Arrested Development Try click the blue hypertext I put in to avoid confussion

hallucienate wrote:

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:

hallucienate wrote: Not an Arrested Development fan, are you?

i for one am not- it was "mr. wendel" that did it. that and making ten million of their pain-in-the-arse tour neck-tie-thong-things.

derailed in less than a dozen...surely that wins us the j.mernor prize for callous insensitivity to suffering.

Sorry Lee, you got the Wrong Arrested Development Try click the blue hypertext I put in to avoid confussion

-oh that arrested developent. can't say i've ever seen that..sorry.

Me neither.

Anyhoo, I hear there was an election in Palestine...

Now Israël is even considering to release Barghouti, and put him in office, and Bush apparently already stated he'll keep talking with the old leaders. So much for good hopes

Obviousman wrote:but they're also still training little kids to become warriors, which is something you never should allow, however good the cause is.

True. But then, we've got the Army Cadets.

well we have to grow them young to make sure we don't run out...

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:well we have to grow them young to make sure we don't run out...

Indeed. So as far as I can see, the palestinians aren't doing anything we don't. Only we do it under the respectable banner of having a state of our own (which actually gives us much less reason, when you think about it).

Hamas do kill innocent civilians and I don't condone that. But what makes them any different in this respect from the governments that condemn them?

(That's not a rhetorical question by the way, I really do wonder a lot of the time what defines the Palestinian fighters as terrorists other than the fact that their war is not state-sanctioned.)

boudicca wrote:

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:well we have to grow them young to make sure we don't run out...

Indeed. So as far as I can see, the palestinians aren't doing anything we don't. Only we do it under the respectable banner of having a state of our own (which actually gives us much less reason, when you think about it).

Hamas do kill innocent civilians and I don't condone that. But what makes them any different in this respect from the governments that condemn them?

(That's not a rhetorical question by the way, I really do wonder a lot of the time what defines the Palestinian fighters as terrorists other than the fact that their war is not state-sanctioned.)

I'd like to think we're doing a bit less brainwashing. Whereas back there they learn how to blow up yourself and point a gun at a random Israeli (to speak in stereotypes, obviously) at the age of six, in Europe they're getting education, history, well, we try to make them think for themselves. Don't know if they get the point though...

this is really bad news, methinks. A radical islamistic party which gets backed up by Iran is nothing I can see anything positive in. In the worst case, the Sharia will be applied soon.

Peace in this region is furthest away now.

Sharia already has been passed.
I'd be more worried about the fact that the
destruction of the Jewish state is practically
their founding charter, along with any number
of other idealogical beliefs that were
"not mentioned in the election manifesto".

No matter what....this "war" won't stop.

Reuters, AP. 27 Jan 2006 10:08 GMT

God: "Which part of 'thou shalt not kill' do you bozos not understand?"

In a press conference this morning, God, the founding deity of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, blasted warring factions in the Middle East.

"It's there in the book. All three religions have it; can they not read or something?" asked an exasperated supreme being. The Prime Mover continued, "I mean, which part of 'thou shalt not kill' do you bozos not understand?"

The Ruler of the Universe made his unprecedented comments in the wake of the Hamas victory in the Palestinian polls, the results of which were announced yesterday.

When asked for clarification of His statement, God replied, "it's not that difficult is it? Four words? And all this bloodshed over the way to worship Me? It makes me sick, I can tell you."

======
(shamelessly ripped off from an old article in The Onion)

markfiend wrote: ... "it's not that difficult is it? Four words? And all this bloodshed over the way to worship Me? It makes me sick, I can tell you."

Four words? T - S - O - M. You are surely quoting Eldritch, aren't you?