David Irving gets the Clink!

[scotty]

clicky

[mugabe]

Impeccable timing.

[SomeKindOfStranger]

was it Bill Hicks that para-phrased 'you are free - to think, to think what what we tell you". NOT saying this guy is right, or defending his view, but got to wonder how free 'free speech' really is anymore.
Theres a thin line in there somewhere....
Especially suprised at the verdict given, as it was based on an Interview from years ago and that he has subsequently voiced a change of opinion.

If someone genuinely believes (however misplaced that belief may be) in something and expresses that opinion - should they be charged with anything? Obviously different to people who make inflamatory speeches with no genuine belief, but with the sole intention of stirring up trouble.
Not sure myself - that'll give me something to ponder instead of watching eastenders!

[EvilBastard]

The downside to freedom of speech is that you have to put up with other people's. If Irving has backed up what he says with hard facts, rather than hearsay, then maybe we should listen. If not, then he's just another idiot yelling in the night.
The last thing we need is a law to prevent him from yelling, though. I hear that Toxic Tony has just passed a Bill that makes glorifying terror a crime. Super - so what exactly is "terror"? If, as the US govt. believes, what the ANC used to do in South Africa is "terror", then all the people I know are guilty under the new law, if only in part because they believed in what the ANC was trying to achieve, if not necessarily agreeing with the methods.
What's next? You can't make fun of the Prophet? The royal family? The government? By the pricking of my thumbs, something evil this way comes...

[SomeKindOfStranger]

If Irving has backed up what he says with hard facts, rather than hearsay, then maybe we should listen. If not, then he's just another idiot yelling in the night.
The last thing we need is a law to prevent him from yelling, though

Exactly.
If you can lock people up for yelling stories with no real evidence, then how many ufo conspiracy theorists do you reckon they could get with a good sweep of the states? (no offence U.S HLers!).
Likewise how may religions could you shut down. they cant all be right!!

[Obviousman]

If Irving has backed up what he says with hard facts, rather than hearsay, then maybe we should listen. If not, then he's just another idiot yelling in the night.
The last thing we need is a law to prevent him from yelling, though

Exactly.
If you can lock people up for yelling stories with no real evidence, then how many ufo conspiracy theorists do you reckon they could get with a good sweep of the states? (no offence U.S HLers!).
Likewise how may religions could you shut down. they cant all be right!!

Hmm, I agree about everything should be discussed, but in a way this is different, isn't it? It's about people denying crimes to have happened, and most of them would rather see they'd happen again. Albeit with different people.

But then again, I might be all wrong here, I'd honestly wouldn't know

[canon docre]

I agree totally. But coming from the country which was responsible for the Holocaust I know that denying it is considered a completely different thing over here than, let's say, a UFO conspiracy therory or any other given thing.

What they dont see is that by legally forbidding to say such things they summon a whole bunch of fuckers who deny the Holocaust just because its fobidden.

[SomeKindOfStranger]

Fair point. As i said, theres a thin line in there somewhere.

On a slightly different note, I did find it very interesting though that this guy offered £1000 to anyone that could produce a written document that proved Hitler ordered the annihilation of Jews - to which nobody has yet taken him up on.
Its also fascinating that someone can devote so much of their life to a belief that is so misplaced, against the weight of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

a bit like LUFC supporters I suppose.....( )

[Big Si]

Thursday, January 26, 2006

NEW FILM: HIS BIG WHITE SELF

My new film, His Big White Self, is a follow-up to my 1991 film The Leader, His Driver And The Driver's Wife about South African neo nazi leader Eugene Terreblanche.

From 1991 until 2001 when he finally went to prison Eugene Terreblanche, known as 'The Leader', and the AWB (the African Nazi party) brought a reign of terror to South Africa. For starters they planned to assassinate Nelson Mandela before he became President, they assassinated his second in command, and let off over 120 bombs in schools, airports, train and bus stations in the run up to the first truly democratic elections for both blacks and whites. Eugene and his followers were objecting to black majority rule and wanted to keep the Apartheid system going.

Now that he has been released from prison, does the leader feel any remorse for the countless people murdered by his organisation during the period when South Africa moved to black majority rule? I popped back to find out.

His Big White Self will premiere at London's ICA on Tuesday 21 February 2006 at 8.15pm, and will be broadcast on More4 on Monday 27 February 2006 at 9pm.

Cannae wait to see that! I remember seeing 'The Leader....' when it was first on tv, many years ago.

http://www.nickbroomfield.com/news.html

[boudicca]

I agree totally. But coming from the country which was responsible for the Holocaust I know that denying it is considered a completely different thing over here than, let's say, a UFO conspiracy therory or any other given thing.

What they dont see is that by legally forbidding to say such things they summon a whole bunch of fuckers who deny the Holocaust just because its fobidden.

Exactly. It gives these people too much importance, and of course there's nothing like feeling persecuted to make individuals or groups espouse their views even more vehemently.
Let people deny Hitler existed if they want. The facts should speak for themselves, and leave them looking like idiots, which is really much worse for the Neo-Nazi cause than slamming them in jail.

One thing that was mentioned on the news was that many actual war criminals live in Austria. I think they should sort them out before they turn to "historians", however crap.

[mugabe]

"historians", however crap.

I wouldn't say that. Irving's books on Dresden and Rommel, respectively, are generally held in high regard.

[Dark]

I think the phone-in on Radio 5Live at the moment is discussing this topic. Tune in, turn on.

[timsinister]

I understand what Boudicca means though, the quotation marks are important - he seems to be using his position as a shield. Interesting that he refers to an event and a person quite distant from the atrocities of the Nazi Party...

I wasn't aware it was an imprisonable offence?

[boudicca]

"historians", however crap.

I wouldn't say that. Irving's books on Dresden and Rommel, respectively, are generally held in high regard.

I don't claim to be familiar with Irving's books or his claims. Whether he's good or bad or laughable is irrelevant though...

[markfiend]

The guy is entitled to his opinions. But what he's not entitled to is his own facts.

I did find it very interesting though that this guy offered £1000 to anyone that could produce a written document that proved Hitler ordered the annihilation of Jews - to which nobody has yet taken him up on.

I would guess that the £1000 is impossible to win. If you could find such a document, he'd claim it was a forgery; if you could prove that it wasn't a forgery (which would be impossible) he'd say that it didn't mean what a clear reading of the text says.

Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing to behold.

[Obviousman]

I did find it very interesting though that this guy offered £1000 to anyone that could produce a written document that proved Hitler ordered the annihilation of Jews - to which nobody has yet taken him up on.

I would guess that the £1000 is impossible to win. If you could find such a document, he'd claim it was a forgery; if you could prove that it wasn't a forgery (which would be impossible) he'd say that it didn't mean what a clear reading of the text says.

It's much like the anti-Catholic guy in Italy who sued a priest and (nearly) made him prove Jesus actually lived, isn't it?

Anyway, the scary thing is some poll was published in our newspapers some time ago, and it really was scary how many (British IIRC) kids weren't too sure of holocaust being fact or fiction

[Gottdammerung]

The thing is, the Nazis deliberately ensured that no hard proof was actually made of their plans..

My head's a bit muddled this morning but unless I'm mistaken there is no document in existance with Hitler's name on it that is linked to the holocaust.

THe main plans were set down in the Wannsee conference and even there the language used was veiled. Though the minutes from this do exist.

It's a case of it being certain that Hitler did order the extermination of the Jews but there not being the concrete evidence or where and when he did so..


On a different note, wonder if Irving will be extradited to Germany now, since he's wanted there for similar crimes..

[canon docre]

The thing is, the Nazis deliberately ensured that no hard proof was actually made of their plans..

My head's a bit muddled this morning but unless I'm mistaken there is no document in existance with Hitler's name on it that is linked to the holocaust.

THe main plans were set down in the Wannsee conference and even there the language used was veiled. Though the minutes from this do exist.

It's a case of it being certain that Hitler did order the extermination of the Jews but there not being the concrete evidence or where and when he did so..

Yes, the "Endlösung der Judenfrage" was determined at the Wannsee Confernce.

Enough evidence for my liking.

[Gottdammerung]

The thing is, the Nazis deliberately ensured that no hard proof was actually made of their plans..

My head's a bit muddled this morning but unless I'm mistaken there is no document in existance with Hitler's name on it that is linked to the holocaust.

THe main plans were set down in the Wannsee conference and even there the language used was veiled. Though the minutes from this do exist.

It's a case of it being certain that Hitler did order the extermination of the Jews but there not being the concrete evidence or where and when he did so..

Yes, the "Endlösung der Judenfrage" was determined at the Wannsee Confernce.

Enough evidence for my liking.

Evidence of the Nazi's plan to wipe out the Jews, but not concrete enough to say "Hitler ordered the implementation of the final solution at this date.."

Though, the conference itself must have been ordered by a higher power - i.e Hitler..

I know its pedantic but it has proven impossible to actually prove outright that Hitler did order this, even though sources like Goebbels diary speak of Hitler talking about it.

Not that I in anyway think that Hitler didn't, just look at his last will to see what his attitudes to them were.

My only problem, is that the Jewish holocaust has overshadowed the other Holocausts, especially that of the Slavs, which is probably far greater, though perhaps because of their subjugation by the Soviets post war there was no opportunity for them to express this as it would be involve a somewhat more nationalistic view than they would have been allowed.

[boudicca]

Anyway, the scary thing is some poll was published in our newspapers some time ago, and it really was scary how many (British IIRC) kids weren't too sure of holocaust being fact or fiction

I don't know if that's a result of Holocaust denial though... rather the effect of the passing of time and the complacency/ignorance that can set in with it. Some of these kids will just not be aware of the scale and importance of these events.

[Black Shuck]

Many have commented on the apparent severity of Irving's sentence, but you have to bear in mind that in Austria and Germany, they have a history of banging people up for doing, owning or saying seemingly innocous things, just becasue they are related to WW2.

People have been banged up over there for selling antiques with swastikas on them (Kinda like that plate which that homophobe owned in 'American Beauty'), and I remember reading a few years back that Lemmy from Motorhead, a well-known collector of Nazi stuff, got in some hot water when he tried to buy a german officers dagger from a market stall when Moterhead toured Germany, or something.

My point is, they are still touchy about the war. and who can blame them?

Kinda reminds me of those German guests in Fawlty towers...

[Obviousman]

Anyway, the scary thing is some poll was published in our newspapers some time ago, and it really was scary how many (British IIRC) kids weren't too sure of holocaust being fact or fiction

I don't know if that's a result of Holocaust denial though... rather the effect of the passing of time and the complacency/ignorance that can set in with it. Some of these kids will just not be aware of the scale and importance of these events.

It's probably not related at all, just something that came to my mind, and all of a sudden I had the urge to post it It's more on a 'how quick people tend to forget'-note...

Still, I'm not very comfortable with it, I think they even put in a question about Hitler being someone living today to which they got an amazingly amount of yesses. But it's been some time (a year, perhaps two?), so I might be wrong on the last point.

@Black Shuck: Your reply reminds me of Swastika brand paper being on sale as a kids item some time ago, I believe it was in Holland, and the Dutch weren't too comfortable with it either. However, it wasn't meant this way, just terribly cheap stuff imported from India where a swastika still equals luck or something alike.

The antiques? A bit of kids' toys, though you have to be careful for it not to become a cult IMO.

[Black Shuck]

...the scary thing is some poll was published in our newspapers some time ago, and it really was scary how many (British IIRC) kids weren't too sure of holocaust being fact or fiction

I've always been a tad sceptical of these sensational poll results, which appear at regular intervals in the British press.

stuff like 'Two thirds of all British schoolkids don't know why we celebrate Easter' and '0% of British school kids can name a single European prime minister'.

When I was at school, I certainly don't remember being asked to take part in any of these dumb polls.

[MadameButterfly]

If, as the US govt. believes, what the ANC used to do in South Africa is "terror", then all the people I know are guilty under the new law, if only in part because they believed in what the ANC was trying to achieve, if not necessarily agreeing with the methods.

Funny how the US govt. only looks to South Africa to bring "terror" into their world. The ANC when they came to power with Mandela as our president was the best thing that happened for S.A. at that time. The word "terror" is involved when I think about a few years further back when the AWB was setting up a little army where children were taught to use weapons like an AK47 at the tender age of six years. Those were "terror" years indeed.

The ANC's methods are now just corrupted when that country is the richest in the world, when we talk resources from the land.
Please let the US just leave their grubby little hands away from that continent.

Yes edited! Christ on a bicycle...see what dutchland has done to me!!! I had written ANWB instead of AWB...now hear the lyrics..."burn the witch!"...oh dear...

[EvilBastard]

I agree that the ANC coming to power was a good thing. Unfortunately the Department of Homeland takes the view that some of the actions of the ANC while they were in opposition count as acts of terror (blowing things up, the Mandela FC, things like that) - therefore Mandela and Mbeki have to apply ahead of time for visas to visit the US, even when they're on official state visits. Sound crazy to you? Yes, to me too, but the American version of the BOSS is one crazy mixed-up place. Not sure if Terre-Blanche is on the Krazy Kooks list, though.