Manchester Goth Couple Attacked.

[Pista]

Anytime, man.

[nowayjose]

It also seems to be something that happens whenever you cram too many people into too small a space and when the gap between the haves and the have nots widens, with a growing number of have-nots.

That's a rather bad explanation of people ganging up and choosing someone more or less arbitrarily and then beating him/her to pulp, just because of a different look. It's the same with skinheads in Eastern Germany. No matter how underprivileged and enraged you might feel, you cannot just take it out on someone weaker than you. No excuse for such behaviour ever.

[nowayjose]

That's something that definitely has to be addressed or we will have whole ghettos patrolled by chimps with sticks (or knives, guns for that matter).

I dunno where you live, nowayjose, but here in the U.S., we already do.

Not just in the US. Perhaps I was a bit unclear -- I meant to point out that we have failed already in that regard. Now how can it be fixed?

[Syberberg]

<places consoling hand on Steve's shoulder>

It's ok mate. I understand about the utter senselessness of this and that there will never be a satisfactory answer to the question "Why?".

Although I'm an utter cynic about humans in general, it's the gentle souls such as yourself that actually provide me with somekind of hope. Thank you for being the person you are.

I too despair at times as to what the world is coming to, but I get angry rather than depressed. Probably not the best reaction to have, as I don't have many outlets for the emotion other than to play guitar or write lyrics, but at least I've got an outlet of sorts.

Anyone else need a hug, coz this is starting to bring up a few memories I'd rather not remember and I'm right out of countermeasures.

[Big Si]

Quite right, back when I was living in the Northeast, the 2 clubs I frequented, Blazes, in Middlesborough, and The Gemini, in Hartlepool, the bouncers enjoyed the "alternative" nights as there was never any trouble. Except from random trendies who arrived with the specific purpose of causing trouble.

Wasn't Blazes on a Saturday? I remember there was another Middlesbrough club night, but I can't remember the name of it! It were House music downstairs and metal-goth-indie upstairs.

Blazes was Thursday and Saturday, The Gemini Thursdays and the upstairs/downstairs was The Arena.

I remember t'other was defo on a Friday night and was a wee 2 floor club up a flight of stairs, just outside of the Cleveland Centre (near the old Our Price Record shop). I'm going back to 1991-1992

[6FeetOver]

"It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."


Reminds me of the groups in power today. And how can one possibly fight against that, through nonviolence, when the so-called humans "in charge" aren't even operating on a human level anymore?

[Syberberg]

It also seems to be something that happens whenever you cram too many people into too small a space and when the gap between the haves and the have nots widens, with a growing number of have-nots.

That's a rather bad explanation of people ganging up and choosing someone more or less arbitrarily and then beating him/her to pulp, just because of a different look. It's the same with skinheads in Eastern Germany. No matter how underprivileged and enraged you might feel, you cannot just take it out on someone weaker than you. No excuse for such behaviour ever.

Where did I say I excused that kind of behaviour? I did not and it's a perfectly valid explanation (and an explanation is not an excuse, BTW) given that this kind of behaviour is far more prevalent and, far more likely to occur, in urban areas than rural ones.

It's far too easy to just turn around and point the finger of blame entirely towards the indiviual rather than look at the entire picture in order to understand why this sort of thing happens. There will be no way to properly solve the problem until the larger problems, both with and within, society as a whole are addressed. In order to solve what is predominantly a psychological problem, you need to understand the root causes first. And in this kind of situation, there are several and it can get rather complex in places.

[Syberberg]

Wasn't Blazes on a Saturday? I remember there was another Middlesbrough club night, but I can't remember the name of it! It were House music downstairs and metal-goth-indie upstairs.

Blazes was Thursday and Saturday, The Gemini Thursdays and the upstairs/downstairs was The Arena.

I remember t'other was defo on a Friday night and was a wee 2 floor club up a flight of stairs, just outside of the Cleveland Centre (near the old Our Price Record shop). I'm going back to 1991-1992

That's deffo not The Arena then. I never went out on Friday night in Boro, so I can't help ya on that one mate And it's been nearly 10 years since I wandered around Boro, the map on my head is getting a bit faulty.

[Syberberg]

"It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."


Reminds me of the groups in power today. And how can one possibly fight against that, through nonviolence, when the so-called humans "in charge" aren't even operating on a human level anymore?

I agree, it would seem that both our governments and corporations have become borderline sociopathic in their behavioural patterns. I'm sure I read an article on this subject recently somewhere on the net. Now if only I could remember where...

[6FeetOver]

Hehehe. But the Terminator wasn't a "sociopath" - he was a machine.

[Syberberg]

Hehehe. But the Terminator wasn't a "sociopath" - he was a machine.

<wry chuckle> True. But the mark of a sociopath, and a psychopath as well, is the almost complete lack of emotional connection to other people and a total lack of a conscience. Which can neatly describe a machine.

And I remembered where the article was...not an article at all, but a complete discourse and book about political ponerology

[6FeetOver]

Hehehe. But the Terminator wasn't a "sociopath" - he was a machine.

<wry chuckle> True. But the mark of a sociopath, and a psychopath as well, is the almost complete lack of emotional connection to other people and a total lack of a conscience. Which can neatly describe a machine.

...of course, which is why I used it/"him" as an example. I'm well-versed in psych and the DSM-IV; I also studied criminology at uni.

[Syberberg]

...of course, which is why I used it/"him" as an example. I'm well-versed in psych and the DSM-IV; I also studied criminology at uni.

The Terminator is a perfect example. My psych education started at college and then I persued my own studies, so I have no formal qualifications, but I've read a lot and observed a lot.

The actions of the "chavs" in question are certainly an indication of the rise in psychopathic bahaviour on a society-wide, no, I'll qualify that, almost society wide, basis. The bahaviour certainly seems far more prevalent in the urban youth than it was previously, but I also wonder if that's more to do with better/increased reporting of incidents rather than an actual per-capita increase. (It's one of the reasons why I'm looking more into ponerology to see what I can learn there as to possible root causes). What do you think?

[Badlander]

Nothing wrong with slavery per se - it has been a staple of human society since the beginning, and is the classic form of punishment for defeated tribes.

WOW. *Backs away slowly*

What's the difference between "I've beaten your tribe in battle, now you are my slave" and "You have transgressed the laws of my tribe, now you must work for no pay as punishment"? Nothing significant, surely.

a) We're so not living in "tribes" anymore.
b) In western societies, there's far enough resources for everybody, so there's no need for one "tribe" to go to war against any other "tribe".
c) That makes these two sorts of punishment completely different, and your point utterly irrelevant.
d) You obviously wouldn't mind being enslaved yourself, do you ?

[canon docre]

I can’t help but wonder why it is so hard for the men on the forum (or in fact for any man) to realise that „being a male“ predisposes violent behavior. The examples for “female violence� quoted seem ridiculous compared to what Sinnie stated. Why do men feel a need to defend their “manhood� even in the face of a crime like this? In criminal science it is considered a fact that men are more violent than women in every society and since the dawn of time. Live with it.

[Badlander]

In criminal science it is considered a fact that men are more violent than women in every society and since the dawn of time.

Er... Who knows what were things like at the "dawn of time" ?
The fact that, wherever we look, men tend to be more violent than women doesn't mean that it was always thus and always will be.

[markfiend]

Whether men are "naturally" more violent than women or not, we like to kid ourselves that we have evolved beyond the sort of petty tribalism whereby a gang of youths can beat one person to death and another not far from death, just for looking different.

This case shows just how far we still have to go.

[smiscandlon]

Whether men are "naturally" more violent than women or not, we like to kid ourselves that we have evolved beyond the sort of petty tribalism whereby a gang of youths can beat one person to death and another not far from death, just for looking different.

This case shows just how far we still have to go.

True. And indescribably depressing.

[itnAklipse]

It's all about individuals, not about "us". And i daresay no one in this forum is above "petty tribalism", either.

But i'm not sure one should be...it's just that social structure is such that it for all intents and purposes would like to pretend it doesn't exist. And i don't know what for you people want to pretend you are above it.

i suppose it has something to do with misguided sense of sophistication and this long-term belief in people not being "animals" and hence somehow better.
Obviously, though, this belief in people being better than animals by some strange way leads them to behaviour dumber than any animals i've seen.

At any rate, i want the social structure of ancient Rome.

[markfiend]

I dare say you're right dei. It's one of life's comforting illusions isn't it, that we're "better" than animals.

[canon docre]

Whether men are "naturally" more violent than women or not

Nature is just one side of the medal. There're many socio-cultural factors that lead to male violence like f.ex. absent fathers, family violence, child abuse, aggressive role models in the mass media, different educational emphasis, etc pp.

[markfiend]

Oh, agreed. The whole nature/nurture debate; the real "answer" (if there is one) is that it's a little of both.

[splintered thing]

It's really upset me more than I thought.
I don't know them from adam & i am finding myself in tears on my balcony

My sentiments also. I guess it is that global family thing.
I have seen similar happen here, I guess it is everywhere... I abhor violence. It is just so sad to see a lovely young spark snuffed out. So very sad... there are no other words...

[silentNate]

Using terms like 'chav' and 'wigger' does not suggest any great intellectual thought or argument. I also find it interesting that 'itnAklipse' would, "want the social structure of ancient Rome" as it is obvious to anyone bundling wood to start a fire that he is a fascist.

Whilst I feel bad for the poor girl who is dead I find little humanity in many of the responses here.

[Pista]

Using terms like 'chav' and 'wigger' does not suggest any great intellectual thought or argument. I also find it interesting that 'itnAklipse' would, "want the social structure of ancient Rome" as it is obvious to anyone bundling wood to start a fire that he is a fascist.

Whilst I feel bad for the poor girl who is dead I find little humanity in many of the responses here.

Most of the dialogue here seems to be analytical & many people have many different opinions.
For me, it's simple.
Gutted. It totally freaked me out, the way it affected me & regardless of the many opinions, I cannot find any other feeling on the matter.