Strike

[Debaser]

My specific concern regarding teaching, is that at 68 I simply won't be able to perform like the performing seal that teaching has seemingly become.

It no coincidence that young teachers are staying in the profession for only 8-10 years. I know of two who are in their third year of teaching and they are leaving at the end of summer - to be burned out by 25 is a terrible state of affairs - and these are good, well on their way to becoming outstanding, classroom teachers.

There simply won't be any teachers claiming their full pension upon their retirement - they'll be dead under a pile of paperwork that is of no use to anyone except inspectors, or encased in a bloody laminating pouch.

[Sita]

"accounting exercise" was the word I was looking for, thanks, De Winter!

I have been (and am) a union member for 11 years now (there is a union for freelancers in Germany), but increasingly, I doubt if my membership is a good thing, irrelevant, or even wrong. Of course I want to support solidarity. But taking more tax from one guy and giving an income increase of 0.3% to another guy (depending on whose votes you want), while closing your eyes firmly to the population development, that is all indeed just "accounting exercise".

If you don't agree, leave - I would but don't have an alternative, and I am debating myself what is more important, solidarity or my personal doubts (that I admit could even be wrong).

If there was a union for disillusioned cynics, I'd join in an instant

But just not to be misunderstood - I think education and looking after their little citizens, so they will grow up to be good people, is the most important investment any state should make. So strength to you teachers

[markfiend]

All public sector wages and pensions are taxpayer cash, surely? The Government doesn't have any money of it's own to pay public sector workers with.

Are you suggesting that public sector workers' wages are "taxpayer cash" even after we've been paid with it? The core of the dispute is that our employee contributions to the pension funds are going up, but the returns are coming down.

Don't get me wrong, I've no objection to a big State sector like Heffer etc, Sweden manages rather well with one. But we clearly couldn't afford it back then even (Gordon was running a quarterly deficit of £30 billion before the crash), how on earth can we run it on the same basis now without mass layoffs?

... so we can't afford teachers, nurses, and doctors but we can afford tax cuts for the richest 1%? F*ck that sh!t.

[DeWinter]

My specific concern regarding teaching, is that at 68 I simply won't be able to perform like the performing seal that teaching has seemingly become.

My sympathies. Especially considering what utter sh!tbags British children are, never mind their willfully blind doting parents. Dealing with that for one year would be enough for me.
But..why is it worse having to teach for a few extra years than..I don't know, being a labourer, or factory worker and having to work even longer for a pension that's decidedly less appealing?

Are you suggesting that public sector workers' wages are "taxpayer cash" even after we've been paid with it? The core of the dispute is that our employee contributions to the pension funds are going up, but the returns are coming down.

No of course not, that'd be daft. Once it's given to you for your services it's yours. I was saying that any money paid to a public sector worker came originally from the tax take, or government borrowing. And if borrowing is ruled out, the only way to maintain current levels of public spending is with an increased tax take. And how can you justify that to people with far less pleasant pensions to look forward to? Public sector workers are no more vital to the UK than any other group of workers.
I've said at the beginning I've no issue with the strike myself, but whats being proposed for the public sector, working longer for worse pensions, is no different than what everyone else is going to have to do. Are you seriously suggesting that there will even BE a state pension for anyone who's under 40 now?
Pensions were always based on the pyramid/Ponzi scheme, something illegal in business for a very good reason, and were always going to start crumbling when demographics changed for the worst.

[markfiend]

Pensions were always based on the pyramid/Ponzi scheme, something illegal in business for a very good reason, and were always going to start crumbling when demographics changed for the worst.

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at it and you know it.

whats being proposed for the public sector, working longer for worse pensions, is no different than what everyone else is going to have to do.

Maybe private sector workers should join unions and go on strike.

I don't see millionaires like Osborne and Cameron and their corporate masters tightening their belts. Why should the rest of us pay to bail out their rampant greed?

[Bartek]

Mark don't be so naive, we all were blinded by greed, obsessed by urge to posses things that we didn't really want or couldn't afford. Banks 'just' let it made happen and not-so- subtel pushed us by ofering (too-)easy-to-get loans. We all trused that sun will shine always on our face.

[Being645]

I don't see millionaires like Osborne and Cameron and their corporate masters tightening their belts. Why should the rest of us pay to bail out their rampant greed?

They and their likes should be paid by those they serve, that would at least put things straight again ... ...

[markfiend]

I do see what you're saying Bartek. I had credit cards maxed up to the hilt, spending money on stupid stuff. However, I paid my debts back. The only things we owe now are the mortgage and student loans.

But that's not the stuff I'm talking about: average pay in the City of London (financiers etc.) has risen by 12% in the last year while everyone else averaged 2.4%. And that's 12% increase from 100K-plus salaries, as opposed to the national average of around 26K.

[Bartek]

I do understand this, and i'm as mad as You Mark (probably ) when i heard/read that bankers and financiers from private fincance institutions that were bailed-out by any nation take bonuses and raises of salaries.
That to make this clear.
This crisis earnt me a lot about illusion that full free market is only way to improve our world, esp. when some group of people have/get heluva lot of power it their hands and don't take(get?) any responsobilities for their actions.
And to avoid misunderstandings- i still believe that free market, as democracy, is the best thing that we got, but it should be reformed, because our greed is to much, so we need some muzzle, leash to hold it.

[Quiff Boy]

Petition to have MPs pensions cut in line with other public sector workers:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/22456

stolen from laz corp on facebook

[snowey]

Petition to have MPs pensions cut in line with other public sector workers:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/22456

stolen from laz corp on facebook

Done and added to my facebook page.

[snowey]

Petition to have MPs pensions cut in line with other public sector workers:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/22456

stolen from laz corp on facebook

Done and added to my facebook page.

Just been pointed out to me that it closed on the 14.11.11....doh.

[Quiff Boy]

doh indeed

[million voices]

My two shekels :-

I was a member of a union for 35 years before being made redundant.

Although they didnt do me much good I am a great believer in Unions and although I dont think the Strike will do much good I dont think they have a lot of options at least it will show that people do not like being pissed on and there is still a bit of fight left in the British people.

[DerekR]

i think if you're part of a union and the union says strike, you're obliged to do it even if you disagree with the grounds.

unions are based on solidarity and strength in numbers.

Massive Amen to that brother

[markfiend]

The cuts are driven by ideology, not by any financial reasons.

Public sector pension payments peaked at 1.9 per cent of GDP in 2010-11 and will gradually fall over the next fifty years to 1.4 per cent in 2059-60. The government's plan to ask employees to work longer and pay more is a political choice, not an economic necessity.

[DeWinter]

Maybe private sector workers should join unions and go on strike.

I don't see millionaires like Osborne and Cameron and their corporate masters tightening their belts. Why should the rest of us pay to bail out their rampant greed?

Either you have a rare and beautiful nature or you're deliberately ignoring reality. If any private sector worker did what you suggest, they'd be unemployed quicker than you can say outsourced or on-shored. You're politically aware enough to know that both the EU and WTO Gatt agreements have left private sector workers engaged in a race to the bottom. If you're also suggesting we leave the EU (who make these decisions for us), and take up our vacant place at the WTO and rip up a few free trade agreements, you can count on my support.
You do know also that it wasn't Osborne or Cameron who bailed the banks out, or left us with a honking great deficit? It was the party the striking unions are, and were bankrolling. Which kind of robs them of much legitimacy for me.

[mh]

If any private sector worker did what you suggest, they'd be unemployed quicker than you can say outsourced or on-shored

On the one hand: yeah.
On the other: not quite. A nationwide all-out stoppage in the private sector would very quickly and effectively hit Our Corporate Masters where it hurts them the most. And you just can't replace or outsource an entire workforce at short or even medium notice. People aren't labour units that can be just slotted in and out of jobs as their bosses see fit; there exists a body of skills, experience and corporate and sectoral knowledge that you can't just replace. If you have 10 years experience in a job, and assuming comparable basic competence, how long do you think it would take a hypothetical replacement to get up to your skill level? 10 years, that's how long.

.....aaaaaanyway...

Luck and vibes to everyone who's going out tomorrow.

[DeWinter]

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at it and you know it.

I'm not so sure that it is, although I'm not an expert. Pensions are funded by the NI contributions of the current crop of workers and invested. It was one of the reasons given for the opening of the borders even (and used as an argument against me being opposed to it on this very forum, btw!), more short-term workers to help pay for pensions. The flaw, as a child of six could tell, is what happens when the migrants settle and grow old? Pensions are in crisis pretty much everywhere because they were based on a business model that's not sustainable indefinitely.
It's not dissimilar to the Euro situation, where the only solution is a massive transfer of wealth on a regular basis from one group(the young/Northern Europe) to the other(the elderly/Southern Europe), that won't be politically acceptable.

[lazarus corporation]

Petition to have MPs pensions cut in line with other public sector workers:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/22456

stolen from laz corp on facebook

Done and added to my facebook page.

Just been pointed out to me that it closed on the 14.11.11....doh.

Closing: 14/11/2012

[markfiend]

If any private sector worker did what you suggest, they'd be unemployed quicker than you can say outsourced or on-shored.

All the more reason for stronger private-sector unions! Remind me who emasculated the unions back in the '80s...

You're politically aware enough to know that both the EU and WTO Gatt agreements have left private sector workers engaged in a race to the bottom.

So you're suggesting public sector workers should join that race? Nice. Re-establish proper union power and maybe, just maybe, we could put an end to it.

You do know also that it wasn't Osborne or Cameron who bailed the banks out, or left us with a honking great deficit?

Yes. Doesn't make it right in my eyes. It was also Tony Blair that got us into the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which was a large part of the reason Labour lost the last election.

It was the party the striking unions are, and were bankrolling. Which kind of robs them of much legitimacy for me.

Oh come on! Unions funding Labour de-legitimises the unions, but it's fine for corporate interests to fund the Tories?

If it wasn't for the unions, people who were complaining yesterday about not being able to send their kids to school would instead have been worrying about sending them to work.

[DeWinter]

All the more reason for stronger private-sector unions! Remind me who emasculated the unions back in the '80s...

Remind me why she was elected to do so. Multiple times, at that. Neither of us are old enough to remember the times of militant trade unionism, but it was obviously bad enough to turn people against them.

So you're suggesting public sector workers should join that race? Nice. Re-establish proper union power and maybe, just maybe, we could put an end to it.

Except that isn't what I said in the slightest, even by intimation. I even gave suggestions as to how to reverse it.

Oh come on! Unions funding Labour de-legitimises the unions, but it's fine for corporate interests to fund the Tories?

Who are these corporate interests exactly? Not the Labour bailed City of London, or the Scots banking establishment I'm presuming. And what corporation gets a vote on the leader of the Tory Party?