2011-11-23 Zurich

[vicus]

From the Dominion Mailing List!

Oh! It is still out there

[Eggi1]

one of the worst shows of the year. Worse and quieter sound. Poor audience. The crowd woke up on the 2nd encore. Too late for a good gig.

[Spiggythecat]

i agree with Eggi
but this is typical for any gig here in this country

even Lemmy failed to wake them up in Hallenstadion few weeks back

first 5 or 6 songs the sound was horrible, guitars were almost silent
even Eldritch said something using four letter word with f...

anyway, hope Lausanne will be better one

[jost 7]

Well, not their best night out, only with corrosion it started to rocket, but never land was huge, creating those vibes only the sisters do. It made my day,really. Thought the crowd was great, almost loved the crowd, regarding the sound ...
Enjoy lausanne

[Eva]

I'm also with Eggi, Spiggy and Jost on this one:

First, TSOM had SEVERE sound problems. There were more or less constant feedbacks that ruined every song AND Vons mood. So what he mumbled were comments of dislike and increasing anger first in English, then also in German. It must have been their staff's fault, because the equipment at the Xtra is superb. I'll never understand how sound professionals can f**k up the sound of Sisters gigs so thoroughly on one night, when they do a perfect job on other nights. Does it never occur to them to maybe walk around the venue to catch a better idea of what it sounds like where? I mean, it's common sense that soundcheck in an empty venue will not tell you everything about what it sound like once the venue is full. The result was that while we got the mentioned feedbacks, the sound in general was far too quiet. How can you f**k up sound so contradictionally???

So, the mood of Von was beyond good and evil, Chris and Ben thus were in constant tension (or at least seemed to be) and on the whole it was a "Fliessband"-gig, where the band seemed to hope it would be over soon (if you can't avoid it, close your eyes and think of England).

The set list would have been great otherwise. What I increasingly dislike though is the intro-bassline to No Time To Cry. The more I hear it the more it sounds like a beginners try to play along that goes horribly wrong. It is boring.

The second thing pissing me off was that while there surprisingly started a moshpit that consisted of more people than just Eggi and Andreas, Eggi got caught by an idiot stranger grabbing his throat and telling him to stop - Eggi hadn't done anything. Luckily, other people made that moron go away and Eggi remained calm. Next thing an idiot girl (child) in the front row complained about the moshpit to the security guy. Luckily, this happened during the second encores, so even if they had intervened, we wouldn't have lost much of the gig. But for f**k's sake: If you're down front, in the middle, you have to expect some movement. This is a rock concert and neither the opera nor one of the youth's favorite "futurepop" crap events. This is The Sisters and not Welle: Erdball you silly, silly, dumb chick.

As you can gather by now, I was not happy with the show at all, and I think it's a shame, because all previous Sisters shows at the Xtra have been suprisingly great fun.

HOWEVER, what was fun, brilliant, a great experience and has to be repeated whenever The Sisters decide to grace us with their appearance again in Switzerland, is that we had people staying over - you know who you are. Being a crowd of several friendly familiar faces makes any Sisters gig anywhere a good one and made me happy.

For the rest, this time Switzerland should best be forgotten or regarded as pure bad luck.

[paul]

Thanx, for the review, Eva. I guess we will never find out why one show sounds superb and the other like complete crap. It's starting to be part of the "cult-thing" nowadays.

[circle]

I'll never understand how sound professionals can f**k up the sound of Sisters gigs so thoroughly on one night, when they do a perfect job on other nights. Does it never occur to them to maybe walk around the venue to catch a better idea of what it sounds like where? I mean, it's common sense that soundcheck in an empty venue will not tell you everything about what it sound like once the venue is full. The result was that while we got the mentioned feedbacks, the sound in general was far too quiet. How can you f**k up sound so contradictionally???

Hi Eva,

not to be an excuse for the sound problems, wich I did not witness, but as a roadie myself (light and sound operator), I've been in situations were sometimes it is beyond your control, you can do a perfect soundcheck and then have lots of trouble during the show. There are lots of factors than can influence the sound in a venue. The FOH sound tech has to be experienced enough to deal with the live problems effectively, of course, but it sometimes takes more time than the audience would like.

About the feedback and sound problems on stage, they're caused 90% by the monitors on stage and the musicians moving into danger zones. That usually can't be detected in soundcheck since they don't act the same way as in the actual concert.

Also, the TSOM road crew probably doesn't include a Monitors Tech. That meaning that it's a technician from the venue or rental company (not familiar with the band and sound) that does the sound mix on stage. Usually that means that the mix on stage it's probably not as it should be, so you can have the case of Ben not listening to Von's voice because the Dok is too loud on his monitor, just to name one of the most typical problems.

I believe that TSOM sound tech does the best he can with all the factors he as to deal during the concert itself. And if the band doesn't fire him, it's because they understand what he's doing the best possible in that specific situation.

[jost 7]

one has to be precise about the sound in zürich: firstly, it was by far loud enough, believe me. i was about 10 meters from stage and 5 meters before mixing desk exactly in the middle, so normally an ideal position. as the stage was wide the angle of the line array does not serve the area directly in front of the stage any more, which might have been the reason for low level for you, eva and eggi.

beside the fact that it was loud enough, mix/balance were poor in a lot of songs, which has two main reasons:
1 - the sounds from the doctor are not ideal in terms of transperency, bass sounds immediately tend to sound pulpy as they don't have edges and by far too many extremely deep frequencies. together with the also dull bass drum you cannot make out the basslines during tracks > this kills the music!
many sounds used are much better since 2011, but there is still headroom to further improve.
2 - even more important is what the sound guys actually do. these days levels of all instruments are set during rehearsals or soundchecks and programed in the mixing desk, and during gigs changes are not meant to happen, no soundguy moves any ruler on the board to adapt the balance. the mixingdesk does it automated, which is more than a pity, it's cockiness.
in 2003 i complained to jürgen during the gig about the almost inaudible guitars - his answer was "that is what the band want's it to sound like", which is only half of the truth, as the band wants the guitars to be audible even above the groundlevel of noise during the gig. he didn't want/didn't dare to change those prearranged settings, which is s**t.

andrews voice of course also imposes limitations to the mix.

anyway, i had a geat night out with a few top tunes proving the quality of mercy, the band still gets better and better, only chris has to loosen his breaks in terms of licks he plays. i met a few people which was nice, had my foto with ben, and almost fell in love with this gothpunk.

and had a frustrated women besid me asking if this are already the sisters during the first track, missing the female singers in the band. it was my job to tell her the truth about these ladies and their glorious leader





https://picasaweb.google.com/jostsieben ... directlink

[Being645]

Thanks for reviews, everybody ... ...

And wow, Jost7 ... lovely pictures ... ...

Would you mind, if I make use of the latter for the Zurich page in the Wiki Gigography?



Anyway, here are a few links to vids ... I think it is palpable (in parts) that this was not an easy gig for the band ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4K3x2ctpUU - Alice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXJPzRUx71w - Dominion/Mother Russia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FtAOwrX92g - More
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBzBnFeS0ps - Vision Thing

Thanks to the original uploaders ... ...

[sisterstekland]

A big THANK YOU to Eva & Eggie for your hospitality in your "THE SISTERS OF MERCY MUSEUM".

[sisterstekland]

http://www.youtube.com/user/lasyboylive ... sbEiyj8Y18

[Eva]

I'll never understand how sound professionals can f**k up the sound of Sisters gigs so thoroughly on one night, when they do a perfect job on other nights. Does it never occur to them to maybe walk around the venue to catch a better idea of what it sounds like where? I mean, it's common sense that soundcheck in an empty venue will not tell you everything about what it sound like once the venue is full. The result was that while we got the mentioned feedbacks, the sound in general was far too quiet. How can you f**k up sound so contradictionally???

Hi Eva,

not to be an excuse for the sound problems, wich I did not witness, but as a roadie myself (light and sound operator), I've been in situations were sometimes it is beyond your control, you can do a perfect soundcheck and then have lots of trouble during the show. There are lots of factors than can influence the sound in a venue. The FOH sound tech has to be experienced enough to deal with the live problems effectively, of course, but it sometimes takes more time than the audience would like.

About the feedback and sound problems on stage, they're caused 90% by the monitors on stage and the musicians moving into danger zones. That usually can't be detected in soundcheck since they don't act the same way as in the actual concert.

Also, the TSOM road crew probably doesn't include a Monitors Tech. That meaning that it's a technician from the venue or rental company (not familiar with the band and sound) that does the sound mix on stage. Usually that means that the mix on stage it's probably not as it should be, so you can have the case of Ben not listening to Von's voice because the Dok is too loud on his monitor, just to name one of the most typical problems.

I believe that TSOM sound tech does the best he can with all the factors he as to deal during the concert itself. And if the band doesn't fire him, it's because they understand what he's doing the best possible in that specific situation.

Many thanks for your explanations. That makes things clearer and more understandable to me...

[DocSommer]

one has to be precise about the sound in zürich: firstly, it was by far loud enough, believe me. i was about 10 meters from stage and 5 meters before mixing desk exactly in the middle, so normally an ideal position. as the stage was wide the angle of the line array does not serve the area directly in front of the stage any more, which might have been the reason for low level for you, eva and eggi.

beside the fact that it was loud enough, mix/balance were poor in a lot of songs, which has two main reasons:
1 - the sounds from the doctor are not ideal in terms of transperency, bass sounds immediately tend to sound pulpy as they don't have edges and by far too many extremely deep frequencies. together with the also dull bass drum you cannot make out the basslines during tracks > this kills the music!
many sounds used are much better since 2011, but there is still headroom to further improve.
2 - even more important is what the sound guys actually do. these days levels of all instruments are set during rehearsals or soundchecks and programed in the mixing desk, and during gigs changes are not meant to happen, no soundguy moves any ruler on the board to adapt the balance. the mixingdesk does it automated, which is more than a pity, it's cockiness.
in 2003 i complained to jürgen during the gig about the almost inaudible guitars - his answer was "that is what the band want's it to sound like", which is only half of the truth, as the band wants the guitars to be audible even above the groundlevel of noise during the gig. he didn't want/didn't dare to change those prearranged settings, which is s**t.

andrews voice of course also imposes limitations to the mix.

I can't agree that Jürgen Jansen just watches his presets running during gigs since I was able to watch him from balcony positions every now and then. He probably get a lot of stupid comments during the gig while beeing busy so he might have rejected you a bit rude. You can usually hear the sound changing more or less during the first songs since he has to modify the initial settings to the changing acoustic enviroment (crowded venue sounds different).

I think that the focus has changed from a good overall sound to a better vocal presence in the mix, no matter the costs. Since the doctor sound is like hammered in stone, Jürgen can only play around with the overall volume and the level of the instruments, mic inputs, EQing (basicly). I think thats why the overall volume has become lower indoors over the last years (to prevent feedback issues-gain more headroom on the mic) and the guitars maintain in the background to keep andrew somewhat audible in the mix.

They also try to choose venues with good acoustics for their needs but that doesn't probably work out every time^^

I totally agree that they should pick better bass samples for the docter because they tends to make the sound muddy if you're not standing in a good listening spot.

[jost 7]

one has to be precise about the sound in zürich: firstly, it was by far loud enough, believe me. i was about 10 meters from stage and 5 meters before mixing desk exactly in the middle, so normally an ideal position. as the stage was wide the angle of the line array does not serve the area directly in front of the stage any more, which might have been the reason for low level for you, eva and eggi.

beside the fact that it was loud enough, mix/balance were poor in a lot of songs, which has two main reasons:
1 - the sounds from the doctor are not ideal in terms of transperency, bass sounds immediately tend to sound pulpy as they don't have edges and by far too many extremely deep frequencies. together with the also dull bass drum you cannot make out the basslines during tracks > this kills the music!
many sounds used are much better since 2011, but there is still headroom to further improve.
2 - even more important is what the sound guys actually do. these days levels of all instruments are set during rehearsals or soundchecks and programed in the mixing desk, and during gigs changes are not meant to happen, no soundguy moves any ruler on the board to adapt the balance. the mixingdesk does it automated, which is more than a pity, it's cockiness.
in 2003 i complained to jürgen during the gig about the almost inaudible guitars - his answer was "that is what the band want's it to sound like", which is only half of the truth, as the band wants the guitars to be audible even above the groundlevel of noise during the gig. he didn't want/didn't dare to change those prearranged settings, which is s**t.

andrews voice of course also imposes limitations to the mix.

I can't agree that Jürgen Jansen just watches his presets running during gigs since I was able to watch him from balcony positions every now and then. He probably get a lot of stupid comments during the gig while beeing busy so he might have rejected you a bit rude. You can usually hear the sound changing more or less during the first songs since he has to modify the initial settings to the changing acoustic enviroment (crowded venue sounds different).

I think that the focus has changed from a good overall sound to a better vocal presence in the mix, no matter the costs. Since the doctor sound is like hammered in stone, Jürgen can only play around with the overall volume and the level of the instruments, mic inputs, EQing (basicly). I think thats why the overall volume has become lower indoors over the last years (to prevent feedback issues-gain more headroom on the mic) and the guitars maintain in the background to keep andrew somewhat audible in the mix.

They also try to choose venues with good acoustics for their needs but that doesn't probably work out every time^^

I totally agree that they should pick better bass samples for the docter because they tends to make the sound muddy if you're not standing in a good listening spot.

both gigs i saw in 2011 were dominated/destroyed by the bass (sounds & drums), both were by far loud enough. guitars should have been louder in the mix. vocals ok. this in fact is a structural issue which could be solved, by all parties, more easily as it seems, as many songs do work. simply don't make up for missing dynamics with turning up the bass morass - STOP DOING THAT - WORK ON THE SONGS, yes, work on the songs and allow them to have sharpness, thats it

[DocSommer]

I never visited a loud sisters (indoor) gig since 2006, that's why I always use way more sensitive rec-in levels during taping sisters show (about 25-30%) compared to other rock events. Unfortunately 2010 I f**ked up my mera luna recording because that was f**king loud and I didn't bother to check & adjust my recording levels

You said that there vocals where OK but that would change if you raise the volume of other instruments, especially guitars. Vocals are on max level so one might live with less overall volume to turn up the guitars in the mix.

As for the soundguy it's probably hard to satisfy all needs - one might say it must be loud so people can't discuss about tax returns without screaming, other might wish strong guitars and the rest might prefer to hear the singer on top of the mix. It must be hard to satisfy all needs but since the reviews are getting better over the last years I think they are on a good way but I don't expect they can solve everything.

[jost 7]

I never visited a loud sisters (indoor) gig since 2006, that's why I always use way more sensitive rec-in levels during taping sisters show (about 25-30%) compared to other rock events. Unfortunately 2010 I f**ked up my mera luna recording because that was f**king loud and I didn't bother to check & adjust my recording levels

You said that there vocals where OK but that would change if you raise the volume of other instruments, especially guitars. Vocals are on max level so one might live with less overall volume to turn up the guitars in the mix.

As for the soundguy it's probably hard to satisfy all needs - one might say it must be loud so people can't discuss about tax returns without screaming, other might wish strong guitars and the rest might prefer to hear the singer on top of the mix. It must be hard to satisfy all needs but since the reviews are getting better over the last years I think they are on a good way but I don't expect they can solve everything.

for gods sake it got much better of course, and a sisters gig will never satisfy all expectations. i am simply upset when standing in likely the best position close to the mixing desk and the bass morass kills the music, and it can't be much different at the mixers place. many other spots in the venues might have better sound than down front which is not a deal

ps: the intro bass hum to lucretia is a good example for a misleaded bass vision

[centurionofprix]

It's funny how different the sound balance can be for the Sisters during the same tour, even from one gig to the next. In July's Helsinki gig the guitars were nicely to the front of the mix, and in Budapest as well if memory serves. I wonder if they've been experimenting with it on purpose this year, the guitar/drum levels in particular, or if it's just to make Eldritch audible when the amplification isn't up to the task.

[sisters-pics]

Pics online now:

http://www.sisters-pics.de

+ Crash and Burn

[sisterstekland]

Full Show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKSL1jZl6X0&hd=1

Intro
Crash And Burn
Ribbons
First And Last And Always
Train / Detonation Boulevard
Alice
When You Don’t See Me
Arms
Dominion / Mother Russia
Summer
Gift That Shines
On The Wire / Teachers
No Time To Cry
Amphetamine Logic
This Corrosion
Never Land
Flood II
-
Rain From Heaven
More
-
Lucretia My Reflection
Vision Thing
Temple Of Love

[playboy]

one has to be precise about the sound in zürich: firstly, it was by far loud enough, believe me. i was about 10 meters from stage and 5 meters before mixing desk exactly in the middle, so normally an ideal position. as the stage was wide the angle of the line array does not serve the area directly in front of the stage any more, which might have been the reason for low level for you, eva and eggi.

beside the fact that it was loud enough, mix/balance were poor in a lot of songs, which has two main reasons:
1 - the sounds from the doctor are not ideal in terms of transperency, bass sounds immediately tend to sound pulpy as they don't have edges and by far too many extremely deep frequencies. together with the also dull bass drum you cannot make out the basslines during tracks > this kills the music!
many sounds used are much better since 2011, but there is still headroom to further improve.
2 - even more important is what the sound guys actually do. these days levels of all instruments are set during rehearsals or soundchecks and programed in the mixing desk, and during gigs changes are not meant to happen, no soundguy moves any ruler on the board to adapt the balance. the mixingdesk does it automated, which is more than a pity, it's cockiness.
in 2003 i complained to jürgen during the gig about the almost inaudible guitars - his answer was "that is what the band want's it to sound like", which is only half of the truth, as the band wants the guitars to be audible even above the groundlevel of noise during the gig. he didn't want/didn't dare to change those prearranged settings, which is s**t.

andrews voice of course also imposes limitations to the mix.

I can't agree that Jürgen Jansen just watches his presets running during gigs since I was able to watch him from balcony positions every now and then. He probably get a lot of stupid comments during the gig while beeing busy so he might have rejected you a bit rude. You can usually hear the sound changing more or less during the first songs since he has to modify the initial settings to the changing acoustic enviroment (crowded venue sounds different).

I think that the focus has changed from a good overall sound to a better vocal presence in the mix, no matter the costs. Since the doctor sound is like hammered in stone, Jürgen can only play around with the overall volume and the level of the instruments, mic inputs, EQing (basicly). I think thats why the overall volume has become lower indoors over the last years (to prevent feedback issues-gain more headroom on the mic) and the guitars maintain in the background to keep andrew somewhat audible in the mix.

They also try to choose venues with good acoustics for their needs but that doesn't probably work out every time^^

I totally agree that they should pick better bass samples for the docter because they tends to make the sound muddy if you're not standing in a good listening spot.

The "Doktor" sound is not hammered in stone if you are trying to tell that the sound is fixed. Every single drum and sound has its own outputchanel and can the drums can be mixed individually.

And I am not sure that the reason they have lower volume is because the feedback situation. I have seen them i rather small venues, playing loud, without any feedback.

Finally, the thing about the band is choosing venues with acoustics for their needs sounds unlikely. I have toured myself, and there is no way you can tell if a venue is okey for the bands need, if you have not been at the venue before, and especially not if the band is not even using the venues PA which Sisters don´t.......

I talked to the one of the guys who works at Mejeriet in Lund where they played a month ago, he told me that no-one asked anything about the venues acoustics and/or PA. The venue was chosen by Luger, the company that booked them, and it was chosen by criterias such as location from previous and next stop, if the venue is available, how many tickets they thought they would sell, and other things such as it is a venue that is often used by Luger.

[playboy]

I'm also with Eggi, Spiggy and Jost on this one:

First, TSOM had SEVERE sound problems. There were more or less constant feedbacks that ruined every song AND Vons mood. So what he mumbled were comments of dislike and increasing anger first in English, then also in German. It must have been their staff's fault, because the equipment at the Xtra is superb. I'll never understand how sound professionals can f**k up the sound of Sisters gigs so thoroughly on one night, when they do a perfect job on other nights. Does it never occur to them to maybe walk around the venue to catch a better idea of what it sounds like where? I mean, it's common sense that soundcheck in an empty venue will not tell you everything about what it sound like once the venue is full. The result was that while we got the mentioned feedbacks, the sound in general was far too quiet. How can you f**k up sound so contradictionally???

So, the mood of Von was beyond good and evil, Chris and Ben thus were in constant tension (or at least seemed to be) and on the whole it was a "Fliessband"-gig, where the band seemed to hope it would be over soon (if you can't avoid it, close your eyes and think of England).

The set list would have been great otherwise. What I increasingly dislike though is the intro-bassline to No Time To Cry. The more I hear it the more it sounds like a beginners try to play along that goes horribly wrong. It is boring.

The second thing pissing me off was that while there surprisingly started a moshpit that consisted of more people than just Eggi and Andreas, Eggi got caught by an idiot stranger grabbing his throat and telling him to stop - Eggi hadn't done anything. Luckily, other people made that moron go away and Eggi remained calm. Next thing an idiot girl (child) in the front row complained about the moshpit to the security guy. Luckily, this happened during the second encores, so even if they had intervened, we wouldn't have lost much of the gig. But for f**k's sake: If you're down front, in the middle, you have to expect some movement. This is a rock concert and neither the opera nor one of the youth's favorite "futurepop" crap events. This is The Sisters and not Welle: Erdball you silly, silly, dumb chick.

As you can gather by now, I was not happy with the show at all, and I think it's a shame, because all previous Sisters shows at the Xtra have been suprisingly great fun.

HOWEVER, what was fun, brilliant, a great experience and has to be repeated whenever The Sisters decide to grace us with their appearance again in Switzerland, is that we had people staying over - you know who you are. Being a crowd of several friendly familiar faces makes any Sisters gig anywhere a good one and made me happy.

For the rest, this time Switzerland should best be forgotten or regarded as pure bad luck.

it is NOT a good idea for the the soundman (jurgen) to drink before a gig!

[sisterstekland]

http://lasyboylive.blogspot.fr/2016/01/ ... urich.html

[Being645]

http://lasyboylive.blogspot.fr/2016/01/ ... urich.html

Very nice, Pascal !!! ... ...

I'll create a SistersWiki page for it, but it will take a few days ... got to do some urgent other things in other parts of my life before ... ...

[reverend]

Formidable et merci beaucoup !!!