Question about Giving Ground

[Pista]

That's right.
If memory serves, once Von had secured the rights to the name, the Mish's next radio session they didn't have a name at all.

[stufarq]

He went to the their gig out of curiosity

He told them the songs sounded good because he really thought they were crap and the new band would soon disappear

Just a guess

Wouldn't put it past him.

Hm. Then, did Wayne and friends actually call themselves The Sisterhood from the beginning? Could Andrew have seen a gig of theirs not called by that name?

I thought preventing Wayne from using the name was part of The Sisterhood's story since very early on, at least. Maybe Wayne's Sisterhood were still allowed to play concerts, but not to release anything under that name?

Some of the SOM fans had called themselves the Sisterhood from the very early days. One of them, Ramone (who I think used to post here and certainly used to post on MWIS, but I haven't seen anything from him in ages) claims Wayne phoned him on the night of the split and asked if it would be okay to use the Sisterhood name.

Von was apparently at the very first Sisterhood gig (the legendary - for all the wrong reasons - Alice in Wonderland gig on 20th January 1986).

Preventing the name was definitely part of the story early on. They changed it to The Mission at a gig on 27th February at the Electric Ballroom in Camden (see Pista's post above). Once Von had registered The Sisterhood as a band name, no-one else would be able to use it for releases or performance. (Sort of. The legalities of names are by necessity a bit vague and complicated, but if Von trademarked the name, they definitely couldn't use it. If he hadn't, there might be no legal impediment to their continuing to use it but it would be pointless due to the confusion and they could probably be sued for "passing off" ie using a name that implies association with someone else. Hence my argument that they wouldn't have kept using it for an entire month.)

In fact, they've been quite unlucky with names. In North America they have to call themselves The Mission UK due to another band there already having a prior claim to the name.

[stufarq]

That's right.
If memory serves, once Von had secured the rights to the name, the Mish's next radio session they didn't have a name at all.

They were the Wayne Hussey and Craig Adams Band apparently. Catchy.

[Pista]

That's right.
If memory serves, once Von had secured the rights to the name, the Mish's next radio session they didn't have a name at all.

They were the Wayne Hussy and Craig Adams Band apparently. Catchy.

Yeah. I remember listening to it when it was on at an ex-GF's house that evening.
Deffo a rush decision

[stufarq]

Come to think of it, that session complicates things. Did they decide on that name for the recording or just for the broadcast? And why use it at all when they were using The Sisterhood live? It might imply that they had to change it because of Von registering the name first, but as I said above, they wouldn't have been able to play live under the name either in that case.

This story just doesn't make sense and it's annoying me! Someone make it make sense!

[Pista]

I'm going on the logic that the WH & CA Band's session was early February, after they had got back from the Cult's European dates.
The next show they played was the Electric Ballroom one where they announced they wouldn't be the Sisterhood anymore & the residual "Sisterhood" gigs were so called, as that's what had been printed on tickets & advertised prior to the name change.

[Dan]

Yes indeed - posters and tickets were obviously printed in advance so it's likely that they decided on dropping the Sisterhood name some time before the Electric ballroom gig, but the posters for earlier gigs were already up and tickets sold and they wouldn't have wanted to p*ss about having all the posters taken down and replaced, tickets withdrawn and new tickets issued, etc.

Presumably the decision to stop using the Sisterhood name was some time before the radio session aired, in time to inform Janice Long(or whoever the session was for) to not use the Sisterhood name.

Incidentally what songs did they do in the radio session? I never had that one, the earliest one I had was a crappy sounding copy of a Janice Long session from sometime in Sept'86.

[Pista]

I believe it was Like A Hurricane, Sacrilege & Severina.
Recorded in the January & broadcast on 10th February.
You can get all the sessions on the Live at the BBC box set they released

[Mav787]

I believe it was Like A Hurricane, Sacrilege & Severina.
Recorded in the January & broadcast on 10th February.
You can get all the sessions on the Live at the BBC box set they released

Also And The Dance Goes On.

[Pista]

I believe it was Like A Hurricane, Sacrilege & Severina.
Recorded in the January & broadcast on 10th February.
You can get all the sessions on the Live at the BBC box set they released

Also And The Dance Goes On.

Aye. Forgot that one.

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

I thought the m*****n forum had closed down - looks like you're restarting it here !

[Pista]

I thought the m*****n forum had closed down - looks like you're restarting it here !

[stufarq]

I'm going on the logic that the WH & CA Band's session was early February, after they had got back from the Cult's European dates.
The next show they played was the Electric Ballroom one where they announced they wouldn't be the Sisterhood anymore & the residual "Sisterhood" gigs were so called, as that's what had been printed on tickets & advertised prior to the name change.

Could be. Apparently the next gig, advertised for 1st March in Leeds, was cancelled, presumed to be because of the legal problems, although they went ahead with one in Birmingham the next night.

But surely they'd have had to change their name as soon as Von secured it. Even if tickets and posters were printed for the Cult tour (and they were only the support band, so there's every chance their name didn't appear anywhere) they'd have had to make the same announcement they made at the Electric Ballroom. The fact this seems to be the first time they did so implies it was the first time they needed to.

Come to think of it, the Janice Long session aired just a little over two weeks before the Electric Ballroom, which again more or less fits with Names Are for Tombstones' claim that Giving Ground had been released two weeks earlier.

There - I made it make sense! Wayne and co start playing as The Sisterhood from 20th January to 6th February. Sometime during the following week Von releases Giving Ground, forcing them to change the name. It enters the indie chart at no 1 on 15th February. The Janice Long Session recorded by Wayne & co on 19th January airs 10th February. They haven't picked a new name yet so it goes out under The Wayne Hussey and Craig Adams Band. On 27th February they play at the Electric Ballroom. Posters and tickets have long since been printed still saying The Sisterhood, but during the gig Wayne announces that they're now called The Mission.

Makes sense to me and accounts for all the inconsistencies. Now, if any of you produces undeniable proof that Giving Ground really was released on 20th January, I'll be very upset.

[stufarq]

And, as it turns out, I am very upset! Ignore everything in my above post. I've received a PM from spiggymr7 with scans of the Giving Ground press release that confirms the 20th January release date beyond all doubt and even an article saying that Von had registered the Sisterhood name as early as 1985. I'll let spiggymr7 post them here himself as they're his finds, but thus my clever and carefully worked out theory is shown to be utter drivel. On the one hand damn, but on the other hurrah because now we know for sure.

[paint it black]

they called themselves The Sisters of Mercy for a week or so

knowing they couldn't get away with that, the Sisterhood and 'secret' Alice in Wonderland 20 Jan

did Janice's show as Wayne & Craig - and then toured with The Cult (as the Sisterhood)

knowing he couldn't stop them using the name Sisterhood until they chose to, Eldrtich started his media war - with Sounds 22 Feb being fairly conclusive

and to ensure recording rights, rather than naming rights..

Giving Ground was 'famously' recorded and distributed in 7 days - released 8th Feb as a 'prank designed to confuse and abuse' - planned release date, 20th Jan (200 copies got out).
27 Feb, Wayne announces that 'we are no longer called the sisterhood'

... 24Aug Swedish P3, 1988 is good for those who still can't sleep

[spiggymr7]

[stufarq]

they called themselves The Sisters of Mercy for a week or so

When? I've never heard that claimed before.

knowing he couldn't stop them using the name Sisterhood until they chose to, Eldrtich started his media war
and to ensure recording rights, rather than naming rights..

Same thing. There's no copyright on names but you can trademark them, which prevents anyone else using the same or an obviously similar name for the same purpose. So in this case, Von securing the rights to the name The Sisterhood would prevent anyone else from using it in a musical context - for performing, recording or naming their band. But they could use it for, say, a theatre company or a car manufacturer or anything else where there would be no confusion or possibility of implied association.

[paint it black]

time for another 'i know alot about the sisters' comp - single digit scores ahead..

when? is well known

samething? no, the sisterhood could perform and had potential to record. AE rushed to get the name out first, as it would be fairly pointless having 2 sisterhood about the place.

[Being645]

Oh wonderful, spiggymr7 ... ... ...

Haha, and a lovely read as well ... ... Will the real Sisterhood please stand up ... ...


@paint it black
Yeah, Sisters Christmas Competition ... ...
I believe it. Still, it were nice to see some evidence for those apostates calling themselves The Sisters of Mercy ... ...

[million voices]

So, to trade on any goodwill that had been collected and to show some kinship HALF of what was The Sisters of Mercy chose a name that had some connection.

Then to stop them using it Eldo rushed out a single under the same name.

Looking back at it now does it not seem rather petty, pathetic and vindictive. Or am I missing something?

[stufarq]

when? is well known

Lots of "well known" things turn out to be completely untrue. The whole point of my original question was to get evidence for the release date, which has now been provided. Is there any evidence at all that Wayne & co called themselves SOM at any point?

samething? no, the sisterhood could perform and had potential to record. AE rushed to get the name out first, as it would be fairly pointless having 2 sisterhood about the place.

They could perform and record before Von registered the name, but once he'd done so they were infringing a trademark. It's a matter of law.

[paint it black]

AE said so. I quoted a source

No RCA were the problem.

Q1. Black knight takes ??

[Dan]

Still, it were nice to see some evidence for those apostates calling themselves The Sisters of Mercy ... ...

Where? I must've missed it?

I suppose they could well have been SOM for a week but during that time they probably didn't do anything, so were probably only SOM in Hussey's mind.

[stufarq]

AE said so. I quoted a source

The Sounds issue you mentioned? Do you have a link or a scan so we can actually see it?

No RCA were the problem.

The publishing deal with RCA was a completely separate issue and had no bearing whatsoever on the ownership of the name or the release of Giving Ground. It was the Gift album that was released (in July, long after the name dispute was over) to try and claim the advance royalty meant for the second SOM album. (It failed: RCA dropped Von and kept the Mish.)

[paint it black]

Can't be arsed.

You're wrong. AE and WH say so