So if I can shoot rabbits...

[zaltys7]

I hate to sound like a snob, but I probably am, a large proportion of the people I encounter on a day to day basis are stupid.

There will never be a fair, just, happy clappy wonderful world because the majority of people are stupid.

There, I said it, and I don't feel any better for it.

[6FeetOver]

IQ's one thing; deliberate and willful ignorance is wholly another. I mean, I have a high-ish IQ, but I'm ignorant of many things. Personally, I hate not knowing, so I make an effort to educate myself. Those with low IQs can be educated (i.e., folks with severe Down syndrome, and the like).

Many folks over here seem to gleefully wallow in their ignorance. Moreover, they're arrogant and self-righteous in their ignorance, which is far more infuriating than the ignorance (or stupidity) itself (to me, the terms are interchangeable when talking of the U.S. populace as a whole). They can't be taught, because they don't want to learn.

So, zaltys, there's no reason, imho, to feel bad. Lots of people are imbeciles, and they like it that way. That's the real problem.

[Chaotican]

One of the things that I find most maddening (and challenging to my own ability to have a rational discussion) is the idea that there was no good alternative to trump. Hillary Clinton was a great choice and quite the rebel. Her policies were complex and her rebuttals to propaganda didn't fit into sound bites. Continuing to lump her in with that orange piece of s**t as a bad option is part of our problem. And the eight years of Obama were prosperous by the objective measures we use to judge such things.

My own goals/wishes for the world are ambitious and won't happen in my lifetime. I want to see humanity give up religion, first and foremost. Start to deal in reality. An end to borders and the recognition of every life as equally deserving. An end to privilege. Those were my ambitions a year ago, anyway. Now I'm just doing what I can to stave off a dark age.

At some point, the questions become less political and more philosophical, which is the state I'm in danger of entering if I continue this thought. So I'll stop and simply say that yes, of course there should be consequence for breaking laws. You shouldn't e able to punch Nazis without facing consequences. Those consequences may just be worth it.

[6FeetOver]

My own goals/wishes for the world are ambitious and won't happen in my lifetime. I want to see humanity give up religion, first and foremost. Start to deal in reality. An end to borders and the recognition of every life as equally deserving. An end to privilege. Those were my ambitions a year ago, anyway. Now I'm just doing what I can to stave off a dark age.

At some point, the questions become less political and more philosophical, which is the state I'm in danger of entering if I continue this thought. So I'll stop and simply say that yes, of course there should be consequence for breaking laws. You shouldn't e able to punch Nazis without facing consequences. Those consequences may just be worth it.

Nope, they won't, you're right. Now, if spectrum folks were running things, it might be a different story, since we tend to operate on logic. But that's not going to happen, either, because–from what I gather, anyway–most of us don't really want to run anything, we just want to think deep thoughts and be left alone. Hey, some of us live in that philosophical state pretty much 24/7; it's not really a choice.

As to breaking laws/resulting consequences: I just read an article about a girl who was awarded $1.25 million for mental/emotional trauma that resulted from having been forced to publicly urinate in a bucket at school ("According to the complaint, the unidentified teen, who was 14 at the time of the incident, was not allowed to use the bathroom by a teacher during class because of strict school policies"). Ummmm...the thought that this girl was too afraid to defy the teacher and get up and go to the bathroom anyway is more terrifying to me than the school policies themselves. Then again, I guess $1.25 million's more satisfying than detention...

[markfiend]

I completely agree with the side you're on but the way you argue that that type of behaviour is acceptable or in anyway furthers and progresses your cause is an embarrassment, you have sunk to the level of the people you so vehemently disagree with, there's a time and a place to punch these feckers in the face, that was not it.

See, I disagree with that. I would have to do a hell of a lot worse than punching a fascist (or actually, only laughing at a fascist who's just been punched in the face) to have sunk to the same level as the Nazis.

Let me remind you that the Nazis are calling for - and 70 years ago nearly damn succeeded in - the extermination of entire ethnicities, sexualities, etc.

Trump is actually talking about building concentration camps and some folk are getting upset about a fascist being punched in the face?

Get a sense of perspective.

[lordofthepies]

Too right, the dangers of obedience and compliance are all too well known and easy to induce. Society owes a past debt to those with the balls to break the law. I'm not sure we have the luxury of being law abiding any more, things are changing too fast.
I found this very interesting What can Plato teach us about Donald Trump?

[markfiend]

Also, in before the inevitable whine of "violence never solves anything": It took a World War to stop them last time.

[Bartek]

scotty, I am pretty much in agreement. The solution to bad speech is more and better speech. Responding with a punch just means you can't respond with an argument.

Additionally, as a citizen of Mordor-on-the-Potomoac, I am very angry with the people who attacked the working class in D.C. in the name of the worm king of D.C. ("Worm King" is an autocorrect error for "working class," but I've opted to leave it in the name of style).

The point is, they're assholes.

I agree with every words you wrote Sultan.

Agree with Scotty, as i'm so against neo-nazists and neo-fascists, this sucker puncher deserver pretty much the same (because maybe he will understand that language). He didn't do nothing good to level of debate.

I want to believe that ignorance should be fight be debate during which facts should win. I cannot see that nowdays. Afterall, Trump and Brexit are results of that hate of debate, hate of knowledgle, hate of facts. But in the other hand what will left in we neglect debate is "sign language", the one used this Coward used.

[scotty]

I completely agree with the side you're on but the way you argue that that type of behaviour is acceptable or in anyway furthers and progresses your cause is an embarrassment, you have sunk to the level of the people you so vehemently disagree with, there's a time and a place to punch these feckers in the face, that was not it.

See, I disagree with that. I would have to do a hell of a lot worse than punching a fascist (or actually, only laughing at a fascist who's just been punched in the face) to have sunk to the same level as the Nazis.

Let me remind you that the Nazis are calling for - and 70 years ago nearly damn succeeded in - the extermination of entire ethnicities, sexualities, etc.

Trump is actually talking about building concentration camps and some folk are getting upset about a fascist being punched in the face?

Get a sense of perspective.

I get where you coming from Mark, my point is the cowardly way, hypocritical manner in which it was done, I think we're about the same age, I, maybe you too, had grand parents that fought in ww2, my maternal grand dad was sent home after being injured, he lost two older brothers and I think three cousins, my paternal grand dad was scarred for life from being at the liberation of Belson prison camps, these men did not sucker punch wee guys from the side line with face masks on so they could not be identified!
I was at high school in 1984, at the hight of the miners strike, I saw bus loads of men and women going to the picket lines day after day, 3rd and 4th generation of families from the village where I grew up and from mining communities around, they went to fight and stand up for a cause that they believed in, not one went dressed in black with a face mask on, they stood toe to toe against the police and security for all to see, they took the beatings, they took the court charges and they went to prison, proud of the cause there were fighting for, brave, not hiding.
Look at the woman of Greenham Common, how many of them were dressed in black and fa e masked to hide thier identities? They got the respect and admiration for the way they protested and conducted them selves, again, some were arrested and charged, but were willing for people to see who they were, courage of thier convictions for all to see.
On an individual level, look at Peter Tachell, for me, the bravest man in the country at the time, what he did to further the rights of gay people in the UK has been fundamental in the law changes and the progress made. Did he hide behind a face mask? Was he dressed in black along with a gang of anonymous figures? He stood alone in front of the world's media, again, he was beaten up, arrested and charged, a very brave man.
The people in this black block mob are cowards, gutless and spineless individuals, not one willing to do what the people above did for the causes they believed in, they are terrified of not the beatings or arrest but are terrified of being identified!!!!!!!! Ridiculous and worthy of nobody's respect. Chaotican and his merry band of professional agont pravocatures, anarchists, trouble makers and the trust fund kids who are just going through the rebellious and difficult stage in life can play dress up and walk down a street in thier black fatigues and face masks on blowing thier whistles and feeling all big and hard for an afternoon, but God forbid anyone finds out who they are!!!! I've got no real problem with punching a fascist, but they, in this case, it was done was cowardly in the extreme, if the guy had threw the punch had done so in plain view, maybe confronted the man and shouted why he was doing it, he would have been arrested, interviewed and been able to get publicity against the far right, instead he came out of nowhere and slunk back into the anonymous crowd like a rat.
I can only imagine how his alt right mates were rubbing thier hands in satisfaction at someone lawfully carrying out his first ammendment right when he was assaulted by some masked assailants, theis clip will be shown at every fascist meeting for years, they made a totem of the wee dick around which other far right arsehole will gather, they will use it as a propaganda weapon to turn the views of other ignorant misguided young people who may not have thought about joining a right wing group.
These black clad, mask wearing......and while I'm on the subject, "face masks help protect against tear gas"!!!!!! My arse!!! A gas mask will protect you against tear gas not a fuckin snood!!!! These people are alienating the very people the claim to represent, the moderate centrists. I'll stand by my initial statement that these people and the way the guy was punched is an act of cowardice carried out by cowardly people who do not have the back bone or courage to stand up for a very worthwhile and important cause.
If a far right mob who were dressed in black wearing face masks rounded on an anti Nazi activist and some coward sucker punched them from out of nowhere the furore from the left would be deafning!!! It's this hypocrisy that weakens the argument and people can see through. You dont always fight fire with fire but more often than not, with water. You will never defeat the far right, never, people will always find a reason to hate others, it's how you change minds and debate them that keeps the balance in the sensible realm, if that wee arse wasn't punched there would be no great publicity for him and his arsehole kind, starve them of as much media coverage as possible, this is their oxygen, the black bloc tossers have, and continuly do so, shoot them selves in the foot with thier counterproductive actions.

[GC]

Also, in before the inevitable whine of "violence never solves anything": It took a World War to stop them last time.

I think you should lay off Judge Dredd for a while

[markfiend]

Aye scotty my mum's dad was in the Royal Corps of Signals and my dad's dad was an engineer working building fighter planes. Kerry's grandfather on her mum's side was a pilot in the Free French air force and her dad's dad survived being a POW on the Burma railway.

I get what you're saying. No-one at the Battle of Cable Street felt the need to hide their identity.

However I'm not sure that I agree that punching the guy was counterproductive though. If someone's reaction to seeing it is "Hey, I don't like seeing that guy punched, I know, maybe his ideas on genocide are right after all" then they weren't much of a "moderate centrist" to start with. Legitimate political disagreement is "I think these taxes should go up and be spent on X" vs "I think these taxes should go down and spending should be cut from Y". It is not "I think that Jewish people are human beings worthy of respect" vs "I think the Jews are subhumans who should be exterminated". Nazis must be laughing at us right now, arguing over whether a single punch is justified while they're busy taking over the most powerful nation in the world.

I think you should lay off Judge Dredd for a while

aye maybe

[scotty]

Aye scotty my mum's dad was in the Royal Corps of Signals and my dad's dad was an engineer working building fighter planes. Kerry's grandfather on her mum's side was a pilot in the Free French air force and her dad's dad survived being a POW on the Burma railway.

I get what you're saying. No-one at the Battle of Cable Street felt the need to hide their identity.

However I'm not sure that I agree that punching the guy was counterproductive though. If someone's reaction to seeing it is "Hey, I don't like seeing that guy punched, I know, maybe his ideas on genocide are right after all" then they weren't much of a "moderate centrist" to start with. Legitimate political disagreement is "I think these taxes should go up and be spent on X" vs "I think these taxes should go down and spending should be cut from Y". It is not "I think that Jewish people are human beings worthy of respect" vs "I think the Jews are subhumans who should be exterminated". Nazis must be laughing at us right now, arguing over whether a single punch is justified while they're busy taking over the most powerful nation in the world.

I totally agree with your view on what's happening in the US and the anti-Semitism, something that the British labour party should look at closely!, that was being spouted by the guy that was punched but my point is about the way it was done and how that sort of thing Is perceived by the general public.
The basic thing I was pointing out was the diffirence in people who will stand up and be counted for something and someone who will run with the crowd, hiding thier identity pretending to be brave, if you're not prepared to be held accountable for your actions, if you're not prepared to face the consequences stay the f**k at home and do not insult the people who are. We're seeing the same a few miles from here with the anti fracking campaign, I was at a rural policeing meeting last week, the people who are on the door step of the fracking sites asking the police to remove the professional protesters who've turned up!!!! Dressed in black army issue gear and face masks looking to fight anyone!!!! It seems to be a pastime for some.

[markfiend]

The basic thing I was pointing out was the diffirence in people who will stand up and be counted for something and someone who will run with the crowd, hiding thier identity pretending to be brave, if you're not prepared to be held accountable for your actions, if you're not prepared to face the consequences stay the f**k at home and do not insult the people who are.

Right. Got you. Yes, I agree.

[scotty]

The basic thing I was pointing out was the diffirence in people who will stand up and be counted for something and someone who will run with the crowd, hiding thier identity pretending to be brave, if you're not prepared to be held accountable for your actions, if you're not prepared to face the consequences stay the f**k at home and do not insult the people who are.

Right. Got you. Yes, I agree.

[GC]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/bra ... hing-nazis

The Guardian follows up on this discussion

[lordofthepies]

Food for thought, for me anyway.

Bernice King, Daughter of Dr. Martin Luther King and Coretta Scott King

Some Wise Advice Circulating:
1. Don't use his name; EVER (45 will do)
2. Remember this is a regime and he's not acting alone;
3. Do not argue with those who support him--it doesn't work;
4. Focus on his policies, not his orange-ness and mental state;
5. Keep your message positive; they want the country to be angry and fearful because this is the soil from which their darkest policies will grow;
6. No more helpless/hopeless talk;
7. Support artists and the arts;
8. Be careful not to spread fake news. Check it;
9. Take care of yourselves; and
10. Resist!
Keep demonstrations peaceful. In the words of John Lennon, "When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system’s game. The establishment will irritate you - pull your beard, flick your face - to make you fight! Because once they’ve got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don’t know how to handle is non-violence and humor."
When you post or talk about him, don't assign his actions to him, assign them to "The Republican Administration," or "The Republicans." This will have several effects: the Republican legislators will either have to take responsibility for their association with him or stand up for what some of them don't like; he will not get the focus of attention he craves; Republican representatives will become very concerned about their re-elections.