Rammstein - to go or not to go

[GC]

Having read various news stories about Till Lindemann the singer from Rammstein I'm caught in a ethical dilemma.

I have tickets to see them on two consecutieve nights next month (one in the Feuerzone).

It seems that the vocalist, although it seems that he has done nothing illegaal, has not been that gracious in his treatment of young (adult) women. There must be some truth in this because the drummer himself has distanced himself from the singer.

The question is. Should I still go and see them? I was always a big fan and this would be my first time, but it also just does n't feel right.

Is it still ethically OK to go?

(by sharing this I am actually hoping that you will all ease my conscience and tell me its all right to go... but I'm still curious what other people think.)

[Big Si]

You've spent a lot of Money on a Ticket to see a fantastic show, right? Then go see the Concert! If you receive an invite to an after Party where only the Singer will be attending, then that decision is yours and yours only

[Icon]

Coming from Germany there is a lot of coverage in all the media over here. Apart from the fact that the lyrics to a lot of the songs are beyond the pale, there has so far been no proof to his behaviour towards women in the aftershow parties either way. I personally tend to believe that the system of purposely putting up a front row that you can only get in if you are a pretty young woman, accepting to dress to the taste and desires of the singer is very questionable. And employing a woman to recruit some sort of harem to choose a (willing?) partner from is pretty sad in my opinion.
But I understand if you would still like to see the show which you have payed a lot of money for. In my mind it will probably be the last chance anyway. I don‘t think the band will survive this scandal. And I for one certainly wouldn’t mourn their demise.

[GC]

Coming from Germany there is a lot of coverage in all the media over here. Apart from the fact that the lyrics to a lot of the songs are beyond the pale, there has so far been no proof to his behaviour towards women in the aftershow parties either way. I personally tend to believe that the system of purposely putting up a front row that you can only get in if you are a pretty young woman, accepting to dress to the taste and desires of the singer is very questionable. And employing a woman to recruit some sort of harem to choose a (willing?) partner from is pretty sad in my opinion.
But I understand if you would still like to see the show which you have payed a lot of money for. In my mind it will probably be the last chance anyway. I don‘t think the band will survive this scandal. And I for one certainly wouldn’t mourn their demise.

Thanks for the reply. I always thought that the lyrics were very theatrical instead of a reflection of intent but I may have missed a lot of nuance. My German is not very good. As a Welshman living in the Netherlands Im quite interested what Germans in general do actually think of them (pride or embarrassment??). They seem to be very popular.


It would be sad to see their demise but I also believe that they will ( and should) not survive this. Till LIndemann will just continue with Lindemann which makes the lyrics of Rammstein look like nursery rhymes.

[GC]

You've spent a lot of Money on a Ticket to see a fantastic show, right? Then go see the Concert! If you receive an invite to an after Party where only the Singer will be attending, then that decision is yours and yours only

I'll never be invited... Im older than 19.

[Being645]

Introducing a row zero for pretty girls to participate in some aftershow sex party for the singer is, IHMO, just laughable at best. The poor guy must have lost control of his life completely, even if nothing illegal should have happened in this context and even if some of the attendees might have happily enjoyed their time. Honestly, even musicians are human and what fame might offer and allow for them can be a bit too much at times. The same accounts for their fans as to the impressions musicians and their performance might leave on them and the conclusions they might draw. Not everyone on either side is able to deal with this.

Whether or not YOU go to see the band perform their show won't change a thing, except for you. Going to a gig and enjoying a show does, however, usually not include signing up to or being responsible for everything a band or one of their members do or say. If you feel ethically obliged to express your disagreement to possible occurences around this band, you can do this at any time, before, during, or after seeing their musical performance. Anyway, for the moment they are so closely under scrutiny, that you can be sure nothing the like will happen and you can go watch the beast safely ... ... well more or less ...

[MadameButterfly]

@GC

just go and enjoy yourself! you have absolutely no connection in what an artist does beyond the fact of performing on stage. if we had to base that on who we pay money to see i would never have seen Marilyn Manson so many times that i did....remember the sandal around him?

do your own thing when it's just about the music.

[Incoming!]

Introducing a row zero for pretty girls to participate in some aftershow sex party for the singer is, IHMO, just laughable at best. The poor guy must have lost control of his life completely, even if nothing illegal should have happened in this context and even if some of the attendees might have happily enjoyed their time. Honestly, even musicians are human and what fame might offer and allow for them can be a bit too much at times. The same accounts for their fans as to the impressions musicians and their performance might leave on them and the conclusions they might draw. Not everyone on either side is able to deal with this.

Well said. During the 80s you didn't get backstage unless you were attractive. AND it was a choice by the women, and unfortunately some girls who looked liked they were 18. But what the hell??? Have groupies lost their skill set or something since then? Or are the demands just way different? I doubt that. Hell if you have very specific tastes and needs, ask your road manager to hire some sex workers. They are skilled and give you what you want. For a price of course. In Europe this is definitely not an issue. Things are different in the States. Still hell.

[iesus]

Ethical dilemas created from mass media tabloids, are simply Bullsh*t and no need to even talk or write about them.
Usually attacks of this kind is product of institutions like the Torries, various GS monetized ngo's, triple letter agencies, various ngo's and paid talking heads by foundations of, for example wef etc sociopath and psychopath garbages around the globe
Remember Jeremy par example

[eastmidswhizzkid]

Having read various news stories about Till Lindemann the singer from Rammstein I'm caught in a ethical dilemma.

I have tickets to see them on two consecutieve nights next month (one in the Feuerzone).

It seems that the vocalist, although it seems that he has done nothing illegaal, has not been that gracious in his treatment of young (adult) women. There must be some truth in this because the drummer himself has distanced himself from the singer.

The question is. Should I still go and see them? I was always a big fan and this would be my first time, but it also just does n't feel right.

Is it still ethically OK to go?

(by sharing this I am actually hoping that you will all ease my conscience and tell me its all right to go... but I'm still curious what other people think.)

the singer in Rammstein is famously gay. or at least, he IS and its not something he hides. so i have absolutely no idea what it is hes supposed to have done but if hes being accused of being a sex-case its probably far more complicated than that.

EDIT: after reading some of the rest of the thread i am sorry to say that that sort of behaviour was/is very common for pretty much all rock bands. roadies have always scouted groupies for the band. even Motorhead used to do it although Lemmy has always said he liked to go 'hunt' his own sex partners after a gig.

[Icon]

@GC

just go and enjoy yourself! you have absolutely no connection in what an artist does beyond the fact of performing on stage. if we had to base that on who we pay money to see i would never have seen Marilyn Manson so many times that i did....remember the sandal around him?

do your own thing when it's just about the music.

I generally agree with you. If we all didn’t go to see artists anymore who ever said or did something we don‘t agree with, we would all be at home all the time probably. But I must say that I draw the line at some point.
When an artist acts or states opinions that go absolutely against my ethical or moral code, I don‘t want to contribute in any way to the income of such people. Usually I lose interest in their music as a result too. But that’s only me. And I won’t condemn anyone who still does anyway.

[GC]

@GC

just go and enjoy yourself! you have absolutely no connection in what an artist does beyond the fact of performing on stage. if we had to base that on who we pay money to see i would never have seen Marilyn Manson so many times that i did....remember the sandal around him?

do your own thing when it's just about the music.

I generally agree with you. If we all didn’t go to see artists anymore who ever said or did something we don‘t agree with, we would all be at home all the time probably. But I must say that I draw the line at some point.
When an artist acts or states opinions that go absolutely against my ethical or moral code, I don‘t want to contribute in any way to the income of such people. Usually I lose interest in their music as a result too. But that’s only me. And I won’t condemn anyone who still does anyway.

That the point I think, where do you draw the line. So far, going to see Rammstein does not seem immoral. I would draw the line at going to see Lost Prophets for example (allthough luckily no longer possible). I dont believe art and the person are completely seperable. The essence of the person is very much in their work.

[Icon]

Coming from Germany there is a lot of coverage in all the media over here. Apart from the fact that the lyrics to a lot of the songs are beyond the pale, there has so far been no proof to his behaviour towards women in the aftershow parties either way. I personally tend to believe that the system of purposely putting up a front row that you can only get in if you are a pretty young woman, accepting to dress to the taste and desires of the singer is very questionable. And employing a woman to recruit some sort of harem to choose a (willing?) partner from is pretty sad in my opinion.
But I understand if you would still like to see the show which you have payed a lot of money for. In my mind it will probably be the last chance anyway. I don‘t think the band will survive this scandal. And I for one certainly wouldn’t mourn their demise.

Thanks for the reply. I always thought that the lyrics were very theatrical instead of a reflection of intent but I may have missed a lot of nuance. My German is not very good. As a Welshman living in the Netherlands Im quite interested what Germans in general do actually think of them (pride or embarrassment??). They seem to be very popular.


It would be sad to see their demise but I also believe that they will ( and should) not survive this. Till LIndemann will just continue with Lindemann which makes the lyrics of Rammstein look like nursery rhymes.

In Germany there seems to be hardly any other subject right now in the media. Berlin officials have forbidden all aftershow parties of the band there and apparently even checked if there is any possibility to prevent them from performing. I think that is a bit exaggerated.
Many male German musical artists and bands are speaking out against Till Lindemann. To me it seems that the public opinion tends to become more and more that not everything can be sung in a song and filed under artistic freedom and the „lyrical self“. Many lyrics contain fantasies of violence, S+M, even rape. If people want to listen to that, it‘s their own business. I don’t mind as such. And intelligent provocation I can appreciate. Those lyrics always seemed to me to be merely to provoke, to say something that is oh so forbidden.. And it worked fine for them. A good example for totally daft lyrics without being funny (at least in my opinion) is the song „Pussy“. The German part can’t really be translated to English I think without losing the innuendo, which is also pretty low.
What I require to really love a band and want to listen to their stuff is interesting and intelligent lyrics - or even stupid ones, but in an intelligent way. Therefore I have never listened to Rammstein. Even though I liked their sound. Could be that’s why I like the Sisters so much.

[Kutan]

I didn't really want to come forth with my opinion, but now I feel I have to.

During the 80s you didn't get backstage unless you were attractive. AND it was a choice by the women, and unfortunately some girls who looked liked they were 18. But what the hell???

This is not the 70's where Led Zeppelin could get away with 13 year old groupies. And it was illegal already then. But that's not the point.

Yes, they are over eighteen and are legally responsible for what they're doing, but the stories that are told by women who were in Row Zero tell of massive manipulation. First they are invited to Row Zero, then they are told that they are invited to an afterparty (to meet Till and the band). When they agree (nobody checks if they're really 18), they are escorted (by 4 security guys at least) through the actual afterparty to a small room, where there are only couches and a fridge full of drinks (drinks!!!, not coke or something) and are told to wait for Till. If they want to leave or are just feeling weird, they are told by the "casting director" to have more drinks. It is still possible to leave at this stage, but you have to be a WOMAN to speak out (meaning: it is not easy to tell the big muscle security guy at the door that you don't want to be here anymore). What happens when you don't leave before Till arrives, is subject of the current debate. And the question whether it's a criminal case or not is whether the drinks have been spiked.

That's how it is, and as you said GC

I have tickets to see them

I have tickets, too, for me and my wife, and we are not really sure if we can enjoy the concert...

Side remarks:

Rammstein lyrics in itself are not the issue. To my knowledge, no member of Cannibal Corpse has been accused for murder so far although their lyrics are only about applying chainsaws and knives to women's bodies. This is the lyrical self of the artist, and although the lyricist's fantasies are sick, this doesn't constitute proof that the lyricist himself is sick (I despise Cannibal Corpse, btw.). Rammstein lyrics are often referencing works from the Classic and Romantic German era.

the singer in Rammstein is famously gay.

He isn't. What's your source for this statement? I hope it's not just the lyrics of "Mann gegen Mann" (another example of lyrical self).

Lemmy has always said he liked to go 'hunt' his own sex partners after a gig.

And Lemmy respected "intact" relationships when talking to women while "hunting".

[Incoming!]

During the 80s you didn't get backstage unless you were attractive. AND it was a choice by the women, and unfortunately some girls who looked liked they were 18. But what the hell???

This is not the 70's where Led Zeppelin could get away with 13 year old groupies. And it was illegal already then. But that's not the point.

Yes, they are over eighteen and are legally responsible for what they're doing, but the stories that are told by women who were in Row Zero tell of massive manipulation. First they are invited to Row Zero, then they are told that they are invited to an afterparty (to meet Till and the band). When they agree (nobody checks if they're really 18), they are escorted (by 4 security guys at least) through the actual afterparty to a small room, where there are only couches and a fridge full of drinks (drinks!!!, not coke or something) and are told to wait for Till. If they want to leave or are just feeling weird, they are told by the "casting director" to have more drinks. It is still possible to leave at this stage, but you have to be a WOMAN to speak out (meaning: it is not easy to tell the big muscle security guy at the door that you don't want to be here anymore). What happens when you don't leave before Till arrives, is subject of the current debate. And the question whether it's a criminal case or not is whether the drinks have been spiked.

That's how it is, and as you said GC

Groupies in the 70s were a whole different lot - at least for hard rock bands. They treated the bands like kings for the most part and prepared a room for them.
Many stories of outrageous things did come from this time. Robert Plant always responds to the fish incident as "I was f***ked up all time. I don't remember a thing."
I've read books cause i'm not that old.

Now when I went backstage in the 80s, most bands were like Lemmy and other self respecting men. They were cool if you just wanted a signature, a guitar pick whatever. Some still pushed the issue and in my case Dave Murray of Iron Maiden stepped in to set them right. WASP are such pigs. I was just a fangirl who I guess was fairly attractive. Or there were slim pickings that night.

Now if what you describe above is true. I feel for these women. I've made bad choices in life but was never "forced" into a situation like this. Unfortunately in legal cases in the US, if the woman goes to trial. The moment the woman/girl agrees that they initially went into Row 0 by their own choice, they'll lose the case. It's not always "innocent until proven guilty" in the US and this also applies to men as well.

[eastmidswhizzkid]

the singer in Rammstein is famously gay.

He isn't. What's your source for this statement? I hope it's not just the lyrics of "Mann gegen Mann" (another example of lyrical self).

well without breaking confidences because its NOT a secret, my mate Boris from Hamburg who's slept with him.

BTW i dont even like the band and i cant speak German,, so why the fuck would i be interpretting their lyrics?. gat a grip.

[Incoming!]

[/quote]
Side remarks:

Rammstein lyrics in itself are not the issue. To my knowledge, no member of Cannibal Corpse has been accused for murder so far although their lyrics are only about applying chainsaws and knives to women's bodies. This is the lyrical self of the artist, and although the lyricist's fantasies are sick, this doesn't constitute proof that the lyricist himself is sick (I despise Cannibal Corpse, btw.). Rammstein lyrics are often referencing works from the Classic and Romantic German era.

the singer in Rammstein is famously gay.

Just FYI on the Side remarks - I have a friend who just toured Europe with Cannibal Corpse as part of the crew. She can attest to no women were harmed by chainsaws and knives.

[GC]

During the 80s you didn't get backstage unless you were attractive. AND it was a choice by the women, and unfortunately some girls who looked liked they were 18. But what the hell???

This is not the 70's where Led Zeppelin could get away with 13 year old groupies. And it was illegal already then. But that's not the point.

Yes, they are over eighteen and are legally responsible for what they're doing, but the stories that are told by women who were in Row Zero tell of massive manipulation. First they are invited to Row Zero, then they are told that they are invited to an afterparty (to meet Till and the band). When they agree (nobody checks if they're really 18), they are escorted (by 4 security guys at least) through the actual afterparty to a small room, where there are only couches and a fridge full of drinks (drinks!!!, not coke or something) and are told to wait for Till. If they want to leave or are just feeling weird, they are told by the "casting director" to have more drinks. It is still possible to leave at this stage, but you have to be a WOMAN to speak out (meaning: it is not easy to tell the big muscle security guy at the door that you don't want to be here anymore). What happens when you don't leave before Till arrives, is subject of the current debate. And the question whether it's a criminal case or not is whether the drinks have been spiked.

That's how it is, and as you said GC

Groupies in the 70s were a whole different lot - at least for hard rock bands. They treated the bands like kings for the most part and prepared a room for them.
Many stories of outrageous things did come from this time. Robert Plant always responds to the fish incident as "I was f***ked up all time. I don't remember a thing."
I've read books cause i'm not that old.

Now when I went backstage in the 80s, most bands were like Lemmy and other self respecting men. They were cool if you just wanted a signature, a guitar pick whatever. Some still pushed the issue and in my case Dave Murray of Iron Maiden stepped in to set them right. WASP are such pigs. I was just a fangirl who I guess was fairly attractive. Or there were slim pickings that night.

Now if what you describe above is true. I feel for these women. I've made bad choices in life but was never "forced" into a situation like this. Unfortunately in legal cases in the US, if the woman goes to trial. The moment the woman/girl agrees that they initially went into Row 0 by their own choice, they'll lose the case. It's not always "innocent until proven guilty" in the US and this also applies to men as well.

thats not my quote. Dont know where it came from.

[GC]

Somthings wrong with quote function I think.

[Incoming!]

During the 80s you didn't get backstage unless you were attractive. AND it was a choice by the women, and unfortunately some girls who looked liked they were 18. But what the hell???

This is not the 70's where Led Zeppelin could get away with 13 year old groupies. And it was illegal already then. But that's not the point.

Yes, they are over eighteen and are legally responsible for what they're doing, but the stories that are told by women who were in Row Zero tell of massive manipulation. First they are invited to Row Zero, then they are told that they are invited to an afterparty (to meet Till and the band). When they agree (nobody checks if they're really 18), they are escorted (by 4 security guys at least) through the actual afterparty to a small room, where there are only couches and a fridge full of drinks (drinks!!!, not coke or something) and are told to wait for Till. If they want to leave or are just feeling weird, they are told by the "casting director" to have more drinks. It is still possible to leave at this stage, but you have to be a WOMAN to speak out (meaning: it is not easy to tell the big muscle security guy at the door that you don't want to be here anymore). What happens when you don't leave before Till arrives, is subject of the current debate. And the question whether it's a criminal case or not is whether the drinks have been spiked.

That's how it is, and as you said GC

Groupies in the 70s were a whole different lot - at least for hard rock bands. They treated the bands like kings for the most part and prepared a room for them.
Many stories of outrageous things did come from this time. Robert Plant always responds to the fish incident as "I was f***ked up all time. I don't remember a thing."
I've read books cause i'm not that old.

Now when I went backstage in the 80s, most bands were like Lemmy and other self respecting men. They were cool if you just wanted a signature, a guitar pick whatever. Some still pushed the issue and in my case Dave Murray of Iron Maiden stepped in to set them right. WASP are such pigs. I was just a fangirl who I guess was fairly attractive. Or there were slim pickings that night.

Now if what you describe above is true. I feel for these women. I've made bad choices in life but was never "forced" into a situation like this. Unfortunately in legal cases in the US, if the woman goes to trial. The moment the woman/girl agrees that they initially went into Row 0 by their own choice, they'll lose the case. It's not always "innocent until proven guilty" in the US and this also applies to men as well.

thats not my quote. Dont know where it came from.

I screwed up how to quote sorry.

[MadameButterfly]

@GC

just go and enjoy yourself! you have absolutely no connection in what an artist does beyond the fact of performing on stage. if we had to base that on who we pay money to see i would never have seen Marilyn Manson so many times that i did....remember the sandal around him?

do your own thing when it's just about the music.

I generally agree with you. If we all didn’t go to see artists anymore who ever said or did something we don‘t agree with, we would all be at home all the time probably. But I must say that I draw the line at some point.
When an artist acts or states opinions that go absolutely against my ethical or moral code, I don‘t want to contribute in any way to the income of such people. Usually I lose interest in their music as a result too. But that’s only me. And I won’t condemn anyone who still does anyway.

That the point I think, where do you draw the line. So far, going to see Rammstein does not seem immoral. I would draw the line at going to see Lost Prophets for example (allthough luckily no longer possible). I dont believe art and the person are completely seperable. The essence of the person is very much in their work.

this is where we all differ...it seems you lot follow a band and read about the rumours of who is doing who in their personal time even if being off stage after a gig. you see i go and pay money to see bands for their music. the thrill of the vibe of the musical instruments and the singing and growling that goes into it as well as the performance they put on as a band. this i do as a hobby and when ticket prices fit my pocket. i don't give a flyingfuck what else happens beyond that as i just don't care.
with these days of everyone being so sensitive if you don't like where a band is coming from or concerned about what illegal or otherwise they are part taking in off stage don't go or spend your money .

@Icon and @GC the best artists can actually separate the art from themselves as the best artists do and did. their art wasn't their personality in fact very different from that and the great artists DO separate the two ..
think Bowie for example...brilliant artist he didn't have any scandals....until someone tells me i am wrong....

[Icon]

@Madame Butterfly: I don‘t doubt the ability of artists to separate the person from the narrator. In fact I often find those songs the most interesting. A good example is „Diane“ by Hüsker Dü. About Rammstein I only said that I think the lyrics are bland, uninspiring and utter piffle. That is something different.
Everybody must judge for themselves whether they like artists no matter what they do. A really crass example is GCs mention of Ian Watkins of the Lostprophets.
The discussion about Rammstein is not about the lyrics or what Till Lindemann is privately doing in his spare time. The system of procuring women for him has been described very well by @Kutan. That goes further than doing their own private stuff in their spare time.

[MrChris]

MadameButterfly, David Bowie is definitely said to have had sex with girls under 16, and was even arrested for rape, though not convicted. Sorry if that is disappointing!

[GC]

@MadameButterfly

To me personally, seperating artist from art is almost impossible. I think a lot of people feel the same. This can be een in the fascination we have with our rock stars. Why we want to hear interviews. It gives a glimpse hopefully of what is behind the artform. I'd say that this fascination with the artist is much more prevalent in the music world than for example the literary world maybe because of the emptional impact that music gives us. We are all interested in what AE does in his spare time, what his influences are etc. I also believe that if he was caught procuring young boys in a train station my love of "nine while nine" would fade very quickly.

To me I'm not bothered with what Till does in his spare time. If he enjoys massive gang bangs and after parties so be it. I would nt expect (or think) less of him. My discomfort is the fact that 5 minutes before he appears on stage he may be having sex with an eighteen year old that may be having the time of her life or may have been coerced and is terrified.

[iesus]

To me personally, seperating artist from art is almost impossible.

Vincent Van Gogh, Edgar Degas, Edvard Munch, Mark Rothko, Georgia O'Keeffe, Michelangelo Buonarroti, Ariana Grande, Kendrick Lamar, Beyonće, Billie Eilish and the list goes on and on and on....

Edit-Damn i forgot Syd Barrett....