Rammstein - to go or not to go

[Pat]

Yeah, stay at home and burn their records. It's 2023 ffs!

If you get invited to row zero and didn't get a shag then you've got something to complain about.

If he'd said "We're more popular than Jesus now" ...

The Sisters used to cover a Gary Glitter song (well after we knew what he was all about) and you're still all here.

Just a thought.

[Bartek]

I know that, despite all technological breakthroughs, we are still live in mental dark ages, where all that humanitarian 'rights' can be summed up: yeah-right, there is still an idea: innocent until proven guilty. At this point Lithuanian prosecutor closed the case, there are opened by Berlin prosecutor.

Fact is that starting from the great success of 2nd Lindemann album he's pushed the boundaries ("Till the end") way beyond being old Satyr, like something has switched in his mind.

But the whole idea of row zero, afterparties, groupies' and so is older than rock'n'roll.

And mixing lyrics with personal life it's so journalistic to the core.

That saying: I'm going to see them in Poland.

[MadameButterfly]

I generally agree with you. If we all didn’t go to see artists anymore who ever said or did something we don‘t agree with, we would all be at home all the time probably. But I must say that I draw the line at some point.
When an artist acts or states opinions that go absolutely against my ethical or moral code, I don‘t want to contribute in any way to the income of such people. Usually I lose interest in their music as a result too. But that’s only me. And I won’t condemn anyone who still does anyway.

indeed and that is your right as a person to contribute to the income of said band or artist.
so if they go against your ethical or moral code you can step and move the other way.

[MadameButterfly]

@Madame Butterfly:
The discussion about Rammstein is not about the lyrics or what Till Lindemann is privately doing in his spare time. The system of procuring women for him has been described very well by @Kutan. That goes further than doing their own private stuff in their spare time.

ooo now i understand what this thread is all about..
@Kutan thanks. so women were going backstage to have tea and biscuits and Till was so interested in their personal lives wanting to take selfies with this fans. seriously if you ever get invited backstage definitely drink especially the spiked ones...no sorry seriously now...
these ladies could have said no to the drinks. does not matter how big or how many security guards there are if you want out you ask or tell them and if they don't let you go phone cause everyone nowadays has that with them the police or your mother or father that you are in a situation you don't want to be in.

back on the topic i think...their show here in the Netherlands coming up they are allowed to break the sound bars as it's going to get louder than loud and the municipality is allowing it for their gig. got to love this country and how we bend rules

[MadameButterfly]

MadameButterfly, David Bowie is definitely said to have had sex with girls under 16, and was even arrested for rape, though not convicted. Sorry if that is disappointing!

i knew there would be one.
not convicted? *phew* on what grounds?

[MadameButterfly]

@MadameButterfly

To me personally, seperating artist from art is almost impossible. I think a lot of people feel the same. This can be een in the fascination we have with our rock stars. Why we want to hear interviews. It gives a glimpse hopefully of what is behind the artform. I'd say that this fascination with the artist is much more prevalent in the music world than for example the literary world maybe because of the emptional impact that music gives us. We are all interested in what AE does in his spare time, what his influences are etc. I also believe that if he was caught procuring young boys in a train station my love of "nine while nine" would fade very quickly.

i do see what you are saying it is interesting to read or listen to interviews of artists getting to see their take on being in the band but i disagree with you in what AE or von does in his spare time. i really do not care and remembering he is just a person with a personal life that's where being a "fan" stops for me with any artist really.

To me I'm not bothered with what Till does in his spare time. If he enjoys massive gang bangs and after parties so be it. I would nt expect (or think) less of him. My discomfort is the fact that 5 minutes before he appears on stage he may be having sex with an eighteen year old that may be having the time of her life or may have been coerced and is terrified.

so if Till is allowed in your opinion to do whatever the hell he pleases in his spare time but are discomforted that he might have had sex just before appearing on stage? that seems your moral compass is on a bit of a spin.
if he had said had sex with someone unwilling or if terrified then raped...then you have just answered your own question...don't go see them

[Kutan]

...and if they don't let you go phone cause everyone nowadays has that with them the police or your mother or father that you are in a situation you don't want to be in.

Not easy when you have to leave your phone on a table in front of the room with the couches

[eastmidswhizzkid]

...and if they don't let you go phone cause everyone nowadays has that with them the police or your mother or father that you are in a situation you don't want to be in.

Not easy when you have to leave your phone on a table in front of the room with the couches

you dont HAVE to. nobody is coercing anyone into taking part. if you dont want to f**k without your phone then dont f**k. there reallly is only one rule with sex: CONSENTING ADULTS ONLY. I
if everyone involved is of the age of consent and they are doing so of their own free will then within that anything goes. including being free to f**k either sex without pidgeon-holing oneself or being labelled. i spoke to Boris -my friend who's claim to fame is playing pink oboe for Rammstein - and he confirmed that Til is quite happy to do anything to anything.. so not famously gay as i stated. famously bisexual. which EVERYBODY would be if they got to to choose these things. so all legal above board and a lot of fuss about nothing. being prudish doesnt make you morally superior.

[Kutan]

I'm not prudish. I'm not claiming to be morally superior either.

I was just summarizing what women said about their experiences in row zero and afterwards, as many of you seem to not know anything about what they said.

Of course they don't have to, but can anyone of you old people (no offence - see next sentence) still remember how it feels to be 18? I'm 54 (and male though), but I still remember how it is being legally adult but not having enough self-confidence to say anything against somebody who is twice your age and/or famous.

Most of what I summarized is taken from serious German newspapers and a video of Kayla Shyx. That's in German, so you can't understand it - and you don't want to, as I understand from your reaction to my suggestion for certain Rammstein lyrics. She was there, she was invited into row zero, then to the so-called "afterparty". She had to leave her mobile at the door. She made up her mind and spoke out and left. Look up the video and find someone who can translate it for you. To me, her statement feels genuine, there's no fake in it, how could you make up all those details? Hats off to her. But that doesn't mean that whatever happens to all the others is just their fault because they're over 18 (see above).

Lindemann has hired one of the most famous lawyer firms in Berlin to sue practically everyone's arse who even dares to write an article in the press about it. And they're trying to silence Kayla Shyx as well.

Btw: Has anyone noticed the statement of Christoph Schneider (Rammstein's drummer) on Instagram (translation by myself):
"And nevertheless apparently things have happened that - even legally ok - I personally don't think are alright."
"Till removed himself from us in the last years and created his own bubble. With own people, own parties, own projects. That made me sad, definitely. I believe Till when he tells us that he always wanted and wants to give his private guests a good time. How these guests imagined it exactly, apparently differs in some cases from his own imagination. The wishes and expectations of the women, who have spoken up now, were not fulfilled. They have, according to their statements, felt unwell, bordering on a situation they could not control for themselves any longer. I'm sorry for them and I feel compassion."
The appropriate adjective is "diplomatic", I believe. Nevertheless...

That's it, I'm out of the discussion now. I have tickets for Rammstein in Berlin, but I seriously doubt that they will send them out just because they want to wait out if the concerts are cancelled. Anyway, I have nothing further to add.

[Being645]

I fully second your explanations, Kutan.
I'm not a fan of Rammstein apart from their early days, but I'm from Germany, too.
You've thoroughly described the situation from all sides as it currently is.

[Kutan]

Thanks Sabine, thanks a whole lot!

[Being645]

No matter. It's a saddening affair that we shouldn't wrangle about aggressively towads each other here.
I only hope everybody entangled in this mess one way or other will get through it with the best possible
outcome and a better reptile than before ... ...

[Icon]

I certainly agree with Kutan and Sabine. I had decided to stop contributing to this thread too, since I felt we were made out to be a lot of prudish people who had been living in a hole since time began and knew nothing about rock business and groupies, spending all our time reading gossip magazines and and getting worked up about the idea that Till Lindemann dared have sex with people who are not his wife.
I also agree that we shouldn‘t get into each other‘s hair about that. So this is it from me too.

[iesus]

+1 Kutan, Sabine are spot on

[Incoming!]

Of course they don't have to, but can anyone of you old people (no offence - see next sentence) still remember how it feels to be 18? I'm 54 (and male though), but I still remember how it is being legally adult but not having enough self-confidence to say anything against somebody who is twice your age and/or famous.

I still remember how it felt to be a woman at 18. I'm not young either. In my day we were still terribly naive (society was) and easily swayed by famous men and men in general. So I ended up learning the hard way like other women of my generation did.

So well said @Kutan .

And I hope you enjoy Rammstein. They never play anywhere in the states near me, and I wouldn't travel to go see them. But I see their show on TV, looks really groovey.

[MadameButterfly]

everyone take a breath and hold it in then let it out slowly....

we are all adults here voicing our options and in my case not knowing the whole story. i definitely did not want anyone to feel uncomfortable with me voicing my opinion...sometimes it reads quite harshly but that's just me making my point.

i most definitely remember being 18 like it was yesterday but by then i had learnt skills of survival being a Joburg chick going up in an apartheid country. when most of my friends girls had been sexually molested or raped we all kinda were forced into looking out for yourself when we indeed went partying. look teenage years you are your wildest and take every risk there is from hitchhiking to the venue and back again or even walking home. you learn to read people and situations and when your gut says no don't do it.

then i got older moved to Europe and had a daughter. you know what a mother teaches her children from the beginning? never talk to strangers or go alone with anyone you don't know. you teach them to watch out for the evils in this world with brutal honesty so that they learn to look after themselves.

when the me too movement started and exploded it was a fantastic thing that more women were speaking out and then one sees how history just repeats itself only now it's in your face.

so with all this knowledge we have i feel for the women that this topic is about, i really do and if injustice has been done to them i hope they find a way to find justice.

that being said all going to see Rammstein enjoy!

[GC]

As the person who originally asked the question I'd just like to thank everybody who replied. I seem to agree with all of you which kind of underlined the dilemma.

Eventually I did go to both concerts. My final reasoning for allowing it and letting myself enjoy them was this: "If Til Lindemann is innocent then not going is worse in the long run". I believe that innocent until proven guilty is as important for society as anything.

As an aside.... it was an excellent concert and the Feuerzone was unbelieveble.

[Being645]

Thanks for the response, GC ... ...

[iesus]

You did well @GC , good choice

Take a bonus vid too

[GC]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/ ... -lindemann

All charges have been dropped.

[Bartek]

But it was faster and easier to build the stack and torch it.

[Incoming!]

This is my view:

All the girls had to leave their phones outside the said room, because Till's penis is so small, he didn't want a photo of it going public.

I'm sorry if that was too direct for this audience.

[Bartek]

You'd better (not) watch Lindemann's Till the End clip