Heartland

Could you please elaborate a little more on the mentioned theory of motivation and the satisfaction of needs, and especially also on the "lower" (and "higher") needs you seem to refer too? Otherwise I loose the plot...

Eva wrote:Could you please elaborate a little more on the mentioned theory of motivation and the satisfaction of needs, and especially also on the "lower" (and "higher") needs you seem to refer too? Otherwise I loose the plot...

seriously: i can't answer this immediately - in fact this is a question covering a wide range of things. and i am no expert on that (although i am an hobbyteamchef). but i will give it a try, and sort out various thoughts on various things, as this starts at the basics. sometimes.

maslow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_h ... y_of_needs

@QB Cheers, this helped freshing up my memories from Psychology. I know enough now.

@jost7: you can limit elaborating to the core: In what sense - if I understand you correctly - do The Sisters satisfy higher needs than Rammstein? It's not that I wouldn't agree immediately anyway , it's just that I'd like to read your hypothesis....

Eva wrote:@QB Cheers, this helped freshing up my memories from Psychology. I know enough now.

@jost7: you can limit elaborating to the core: In what sense - if I understand you correctly - do The Sisters satisfy higher needs than Rammstein? It's not that I wouldn't agree immediately anyway , it's just that I'd like to read your hypothesis....

I guess it can be said, that The Sisters don't actually satisfy our need for actualization.

canon docre wrote: I guess it can be said, that The Sisters don't actually satisfy our need for actualization.

Given our reoccurring disagreements on lyrics of existing songs maybe they think we're not ready for actualisation yet, cause we're still digesting what we've been given. I mean we even have controversies on the amount of layers in Anaconda - how can we be ready for anything new?

Eva wrote:

canon docre wrote: I guess it can be said, that The Sisters don't actually satisfy our need for actualization.

Given our reoccurring disagreements on lyrics of existing songs maybe they think we're not ready for actualisation yet, cause we're still digesting what we've been given. I mean we even have controversies on the amount of layers in Anaconda - how can we be ready for anything new?

Either that or he's lazy.

Planet Dave wrote:

Eva wrote:

canon docre wrote: I guess it can be said, that The Sisters don't actually satisfy our need for actualization.

Given our reoccurring disagreements on lyrics of existing songs maybe they think we're not ready for actualisation yet, cause we're still digesting what we've been given. I mean we even have controversies on the amount of layers in Anaconda - how can we be ready for anything new?

Either that or he's lazy.

i just think it's a realy unhealty mix of both, which leaves all of us unsatisfied

Chairman Bux wrote:But Rammstein are the logical conclusion to the evolutionary tale that is The Sisters, surely? Even if Til's German isn't as good as Our Fearless Leader's.

Exactly. They're one of many bands in that lineage. Whoever it was said that The Sisters are a copy is just ignorant and needs to brush up on their history. Absurd.
I'm pretty sure Rammstein have been influenced by The Sisters amongst other things. I'd have said Depeche Mode had been more of an influence on them though.

The Sisters are not copyists, but they are certainly bricoleurs.
























Oh, go on then. DrChris says: in cultural terms, a bricoleur is someone who, like a magpie, uses the cultural symbols around him to assemble a new meaning, which often subverts the meaning of the original. The punks used their safety-pins and ripped clothes and tribal hair and workman's boots to assemble an entirely new style. Eldritch has used elements of rock and roll, punk, glam, gothic imagery, psychedelia and god knows what else to construct an image of rock which is somewhere between homage and pastiche. Copyists steal, bricoleurs 'reassemble'.

Driven wrote:I'd have said Depeche Mode had been more of an influence on them though.

and German heavy metal from 80s. Accept and others.
anyway, there's no need of Rammstein until Die Krupps exists. (and I'm bloody happy that I have booked my ticket to their gig in December )

pikkrong wrote:

Driven wrote:I'd have said Depeche Mode had been more of an influence on them though.

and German heavy metal from 80s. Accept and others.
anyway, there's no need of Rammstein until Die Krupps exists. (and I'm bloody happy that I have booked my tickets to their gig in December )

Die Krupps. A fine band.

MrChris wrote:The Sisters are not copyists, but they are certainly bricoleurs.
...
Oh, go on then. DrChris says: in cultural terms, a bricoleur is someone who, like a magpie, uses the cultural symbols around him to assemble a new meaning, which often subverts the meaning of the original. The punks used their safety-pins and ripped clothes and tribal hair and workman's boots to assemble an entirely new style. Eldritch has used elements of rock and roll, punk, glam, gothic imagery, psychedelia and god knows what else to construct an image of rock which is somewhere between homage and pastiche. Copyists steal, bricoleurs 'reassemble'.

Very well put!

Higher needs than Rammstein? the Sisters is art, Rammstein is entertainment. It's not about making better songs, or writing better lyrics, though those are definetely a part of it on the level where 'art' manifests itself (but only to those who, at least to an extent, are susceptible to 'higher needs' or who are not detached entirely themselves)...it's about being 'relevant', in the higher sense of the word. Not relevant as in making some silly little point about society or satisfying the aesthetic needs of the audience, but relevant as in being attached to the infinity of things. Eldritch can write about politics or speed all he wants, but as he is not detached, his writings will never be only about those things, or are of those things in a transcendental fashion, so that his writings and songs have some substance, instead of being just 'stories' or points of views. For me the concept of art becomes sufficiently separated from the concept of entertainment only when art's definition includes the idea of being connected to totality of things. Whether one perceives that or not, and how one perceives that, depends on one's general disposition in life, and there is no way in hell it can be proved one way or another (ever wonder why people assume that the world is arranged in a fashion that everything is subject to proof? i do!).

i'm not that convinced about the division between copyists and bricoleurs...it's just one facet of it. Also it tries to imply that there is something objective about this whole thing, whereas it all depends again on one's disposition.

PS: My apologies if my explanation sounds awfully esoteric, it's not meant to be that way, though it's very difficult to talk about this kind of matters with the terminology offered by zeitgeist that doesn't recognise many of the things that are so essential to non-superficial understanding and discourse on the subject. Like the concept of 'totality of things', i could say 'tao' or 'infinity' or 'providence' or 'un-i-verse', but it unavoidably would be read as needing to believe in the specific system of whose terminology i chose to use whereas it really doesn't matter...and all complicated by the fact that current climate of age of reason doesn't recognise any such things as being connected or being disconnected from 'life'. Whereas it really should be common sense to anyone who can grasp a totally abstract concept as it were a tangible thing that of course one can be connected or disconnected to life (consider Paul Schrader's masterpiece 'Mishima' and the idea of words and worlds connecting).

Thank you.

I don't see a contradiction between what you say about The Sisters and the concept of bricoleurs though, because I don't see them as merely assembling already existing elements - unless of course one regards all new-ish music as merely reproducing different versions of already existing patterns. Bricolage in The Sisters' context for me means something like playing with existing elements, altering them etc. Similar to what DrChris said about punk. But that's only part of what TSOM do, or rather: part of how they do what they do. AND: I'd say bricolage can be art in the sense you use the word, as the assembly of existing elements can provide an interpretiation of reality, a "message" so to speak, or a kind of truth. And that is more than entertainment I'd say.

I've come up with a solution to get Andy back on top. I think it's win/win for all parties involved.

The Sisters need to enter a song in this year's Eurovision. Hey, it worked for ABBA, right?

(PS I'm American. Who's impressed with my knowledge of European culture? )

Brian

Impressed, but...

Let's just say Eurovision is a part of our culture that we'd rather brush under the carpet

Being American, I think I have a clue as to what you're talking about...

Still... a t-shirt that says SISTER EUROVISION 2005 (with the new head and star logo on the front and a 'To the Planet's Edge' logo only with Europe on the back) sounds mighty attractive!

The tee is a good idea taking part is not

I stumbled across a song a few years ago on a download site called 'Assasin Soul' - is this one of the songs that von considers unsuitable for live performances? It wasn't what I would consider a final polished track but it wasn't a portastudio demo either. Rather a good song in my opinion.

Then again, there are a lot of things on the download sites that have the artist given as The Sisters Of Mercy when they obviously aren't.

Anyone else know about this 'Assasin Soul' then

Doesn't ring a bell

Do you genuinely think it's by the Sisters? I don't think one of those not-live songs has ever surfaced. Could you perhaps post is somewhere online

Cheers!

Rings a bell.

This one?

http://www.musicstrands.com/action/deta ... /ref/trrec

So this Goff stuff sounds like the Sisters nowadays? So Andrew doesn't put anything on record because he considers himself too goff?

I'll try and upload it to the ftp server, trouble is there are too many users on it at present.

'Assasin Soul' sounds like The Sisters to me but I could be wrong. The drum machine has a definate Sisters feel to it but as has been mentioned, people have posted the wrong name with songs (like Marilyn Manson's cover of Tainted Love and Shout by Tears For Fears to name but two).

Even if it isn't the Sisters who done Assasin Soul, it is still a decent song!

RetroGoth wrote:I'll try and upload it to the ftp server, trouble is there are too many users on it at present.

'Assasin Soul' sounds like The Sisters to me but I could be wrong. The drum machine has a definate Sisters feel to it but as has been mentioned, people have posted the wrong name with songs (like Marilyn Manson's cover of Tainted Love and Shout by Tears For Fears to name but two).

Even if it isn't the Sisters who done Assasin Soul, it is still a decent song!

Don't you read answers to your question? (above)

Ok...I'll try again...
It is performed by SUSPERIA and (indeed) called 'Assasin Soul' .....goff sh*t.