Heartland

a.r.kane wrote:

nick the stripper wrote:The Amish disgust me.

The English disgust me. You disgust me.

Und wer nicht tanzen will, zum Schluß, weiß noch nicht daß er tanzen muß!

Klatu Baratu Nikto

markfiend wrote:

DarkAngel wrote:The forgiving response of the Amish community [...]

... is a good thing why exactly?

DarkAngel wrote:The killer's widow and children will not be ostrasized, but instead will be accepted and cared for.

I should damn well hope so. It was him that killed the girls, not them. And I'm sure not a day will go by without them being reminded of the compassion and forgiveness the Amish have shown them.

Sanctimonious twaddle.

Is it? How often do you hear hypocrites of all kinds tell people to forgive (but you know they hold resentments). These people put real action behind their words of love and forgiveness. Most of us are too weak/angry/arrogant/afraid and unwilling to even try to behave that way - me included.

Imagine for a moment that your beautiful six year old daughter was bound by the feet and killed execution stlye in school........now imagine the very next day you reach out to and mourn with the wife and children of your child's murderer (people who are not in your circle of friends). You also establish a trust fund for them.

If you can see yourself doing this then you are unique among millions.

DarkAngel wrote:How often do you hear hypocrites of all kinds tell people to forgive

I used to hear them every day when I went to church.

I'm not saying that I'm in favour of endless retaliation; after all "an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind", but...

Forgiveness is overrated. What good does "turn the other cheek" actually do? You just end up empowering your aggressor further.

*Edit: In the situation you describe: Again, the murderer's wife and kids are not the murderer. They commited no violence in order to warrant any forgiveness. I am glad that the Amish seem to bear no misdirected ill-will, but I reiterate that being told "you are forgiven for the crimes of your father" when there is nothing you have done that needs to be forgiven is hurtful, and IMO arrogant.

I'm sorry, but "Christian forgiveness" always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

markfiend wrote:

DarkAngel wrote:How often do you hear hypocrites of all kinds tell people to forgive

I used to hear them every day when I went to church.

I'm not saying that I'm in favour of endless retaliation; after all "an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind", but...

Foregiveness is overrated. What good does "turn the other cheek" actually do? You just end up empowering your aggressor further.

Although I am no expert myself, the practice of forgiveness relieves the "forgiver" of the mental burden of resentment and anger. The Amish believe that to hold resentment inside will cause mental sickness. As far as enabling the aggressor goes, they wouldn't agree with you.

markfiend wrote:

DarkAngel wrote:How often do you hear hypocrites of all kinds tell people to forgive

*Edit: In the situation you describe: Again, the murderer's wife and kids are not the murderer. They commited no violence in order to warrant any forgiveness. I am glad that the Amish seem to bear no misdirected ill-will, but I reiterate that being told "you are forgiven for the crimes of your father" when there is nothing you have done that needs to be forgiven is hurtful, and IMO arrogant.

I don't know about you, but if I were a child who went to school with the killer's children I would be inclined to not have them over to my house for a "sleepover" and avoid playing with them. Perhaps my parents would have encouraged this. The way the Amish reached out to this family has set a standard for the rest of the community - it is amazing really.

OK, I see your point. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but whenever I see someone acting selflessly or altruistically, I always ask myself "what's in it for them?"

I am being cynical, aren't I?

no more or less amazing then any number of other acts of forgiveness by the survivors or bereaved, both secular and religious, of any number of similar incidents.

I really do think that pure selflessness is rare and seldom come by and that most selfless people are egoists in denial who are selfless because subconsciously they think it benefits them.

markfiend wrote:

DarkAngel wrote:How often do you hear hypocrites of all kinds tell people to forgive

I used to hear them every day when I went to church.

I'm sorry, but "Christian forgiveness" always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Believe me, I can relate to that - I have been mistreated by the Christian Church - and I think of the many who have been abused by the Catholic church - where there is money and power on top of the "religion."

But, I "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" as we say out here. In this case, the way the Amish chose to practice their faith inspired me and so many others- it brought beauty into total ugliness. A lot of so-called Christians around here were humbled by their response.

RicheyJames wrote:no more or less amazing then any number of other acts of forgiveness by the survivors or bereaved, both secular and religious, of any number of similar incidents.

yes.

DarkAngel wrote:

RicheyJames wrote:no more or less amazing then any number of other acts of forgiveness by the survivors or bereaved, both secular and religious, of any number of similar incidents.

yes.

actually, no. further thought leads me to the conclusion that this "communal" act of forgiveness is actually far, far less "amazing" or "inspiring" than a similar individual act as there is an inherent element of coercion rather than an individually human response.

I backed down too soon didn't I? I knew there was something I was missing. Forgiveness as groupthink...

Edit: Forgiveness, not foregiveness. That's the third time I've done that in this thread.

markfiend wrote:I backed down too soon didn't I? I knew there was something I was missing. Forgiveness as groupthink...

Edit: Forgiveness, not foregiveness. That's the third time I've done that in this thread.

Just because you took a moment to consider something as lovely despite its potential religiousity does not mean you have backed down.

Whatever. I'm bored of this thread now.

RicheyJames wrote:

DarkAngel wrote:

RicheyJames wrote:no more or less amazing then any number of other acts of forgiveness by the survivors or bereaved, both secular and religious, of any number of similar incidents.

yes.

actually, no. further thought leads me to the conclusion that this "communal" act of forgiveness is actually far, far less "amazing" or "inspiring" than a similar individual act as there is an inherent element of coercion rather than an individually human response.

It is a grouping of similar individual behaviors - each individual choosing to behave in such a manner. Each individual act lovely made even more lovely as it was done in unison. And the behavior itself - a beautiful choice.

Jeeez, are there any Amish around here trying to convert us?

Sorry, DarkAngel, I'll never give my telly away....

canon docre wrote:Jeeez, are there any Amish around here trying to convert us?

Sorry, DarkAngel, I'll never give my telly away....

I always wanted to start a band and dress up like the Amish. ACDC's guitar player always reminded me of a little Amish boy in those silly shorts!

a.r.kane wrote:

nick the stripper wrote:The Amish disgust me.

The English disgust me. You disgust me.

I'm disgusted by the English too. We suck.

Dark wrote:

a.r.kane wrote:

nick the stripper wrote:The Amish disgust me.

The English disgust me. You disgust me.

I'm disgusted by the English too. We suck.

TRADER!

(sigh) 9 - it's TRAITOR.

DarkAngel wrote:(sigh) 9 - it's TRAITOR.

No see he wants to trade his........

a.r.kane wrote:

nick the stripper wrote:The Amish disgust me.

The English disgust me. You disgust me.

I didn't know they had 'tinternet in the Hindu Kush. Who says these people aren't civilised!

DarkAngel wrote:

RicheyJames wrote:

DarkAngel wrote: yes.

actually, no. further thought leads me to the conclusion that this "communal" act of forgiveness is actually far, far less "amazing" or "inspiring" than a similar individual act as there is an inherent element of coercion rather than an individually human response.

It is a grouping of similar individual behaviors - each individual choosing to behave in such a manner. Each individual act lovely made even more lovely as it was done in unison. And the behavior itself - a beautiful choice.

is it though? or is it a tightly-controlled society being instructed to "forgive" by their elders? i know which my money is on...

DarkAngel wrote:

canon docre wrote:Jeeez, are there any Amish around here trying to convert us?

Sorry, DarkAngel, I'll never give my telly away....

I always wanted to start a band and dress up like the Amish. ACDC's guitar player always reminded me of a little Amish boy in those silly shorts!

Wouldn't it be Amish Unplugged?