Heartland

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 00:24**

the_inescapable_truth wrote:This wouldn't be so bad, but it's the fact that in his lyrics he tries to write about things he clears doesn't really 'get'.

Such as what? By his own admission, nearly all of his songs are about sex. And I'm pretty sure he gets plenty of that.

I've always thought the need for some fans of both camps to be as horrible as possible about whichever band they don't like is just sad. If you like one band, great. If you like both, even better. if you don't like one or the other, fair enough but who really cares? So Wayne and Andrew had a falling out 24 years ago. Faults on both sides. Both got over it a long time ago. Perhaps the fans should too.

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 00:30**

weebleswobble wrote:Aye, let's gang up on Rosetta Stone fans

I'd more willingly stick up for them than the drunken fool friend of James Whale

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 03:11**

mh wrote:Ummm - for someone who only wrote 5 or 6 (released) tracks for the band, I'd be a little underwhelmed if Hussmonster were to work with Von again. Gary or Craig on the other hand would be something worth celebrating.

Take your common sense and get out of here.

I agree with you!

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 11:25**

stufarq wrote:
the_inescapable_truth wrote:This wouldn't be so bad, but it's the fact that in his lyrics he tries to write about things he clears doesn't really 'get'.
Such as what? By his own admission, nearly all of his songs are about sex. And I'm pretty sure he gets plenty of that.

I've always thought the need for some fans of both camps to be as horrible as possible about whichever band they don't like is just sad. If you like one band, great. If you like both, even better. if you don't like one or the other, fair enough but who really cares? So Wayne and Andrew had a falling out 24 years ago. Faults on both sides. Both got over it a long time ago. Perhaps the fans should too.

I don't hate them, because Andrew hates them. I hate them, because they're rubbish.

People say music is subjective, but not nearly as much as they think - not really. No sane person would argue that Robbie Williams is 'as good' as Mozart - though it could be argued they are really attempting to do different things. But the point it is possible to objectively examine music on the aesthetic principles, and it is under this lens we can see the Sisters' music is more valuable, and yes better, than The M*****N's by miles.

Perhaps my earlier point about what I find annoying about their lyrics specifically wasn't clear, but it's actually quite hard to describe, and maybe I'd make my point better if I actually bothered to dig into their lyrics and throw up some examples. But essentially it is obvious to me that through Hussey's association with Eldritch he encountered a range of poetic devices perhaps for the first time, and he went on to try apply it to himself, but failed to really understand how things really work. The result is his lyrics self-consciously allude to greater concepts without really adding anything to the song to appear 'intellectual'. But as I said I could make this point better if I actually digged up some examples. I may do so later. Or not. Oh, and just because Hussey has had lots of sex, doesn't mean he understands it. It doesn't mean he understands the significance of it. Nor does it mean he has the artistic temperament to write about it.

Why does it matter anyway? Can't the bands coexist peacefully? Well sure, but I just happen to think this kind of thing is worth arguing about - not to just plain interesting. And if done properly we can come to a better understanding of what good music actually is, I think. I'll save my praise for someone who deserves it.

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 13:07**

The above post seems to allude to some greater intelligence that Eldritch possesses, which baffles me as to why, if he's a cleaver fella, is he in a rock band.

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 13:12**

i reckon the other thread is a fairly honest piece from the huss-bag IMO. before the whole sisterhood thing the band's split was fairly amicable according to all parties involved: adams/hussey had had their fill of being underlings in an increasingly uncompromising regime and eldritch finally had the chair, the board and the boardroom to himself with plenty of talented yes-men willing to fill any role he should need filling.
it was always going be unforgiveable that the mish-take tried to call themselves the sisters of mercy -after all they had left the band - and neither were original members. besides all parties had agreed not to use the name. going on to then try being "the sisters" (same thing innit?

) and failing legally on both counts should have been the end of it- it didn't need to get nasty and end in a public/financial humiliation at eldritch's hands. by the time husseys sleeping dogs wanted badly to roll-over and play dead it was too late: why should eldritch (publicly) end a feud which he'd already won in perpetuity and which presented him with amusing oppurtunies way to gloat, mock and generally remind wayne and anyone else who was best.
in the same way a five-year-old responds to a cruel but cever insult with "i know you are, you said you are" hussey gives it the "eldritch smells of wee" line while still being obviously in awe of him.

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 13:55**

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:i reckon the other thread is a fairly honest piece from the huss-bag IMO. before the whole sisterhood thing the band's split was fairly amicable according to all parties involved: adams/hussey had had their fill of being underlings in an increasingly uncompromising regime and eldritch finally had the chair, the board and the boardroom to himself with plenty of talented yes-men willing to fill any role he should need filling.
it was always going be unforgiveable that the mish-take tried to call themselves the sisters of mercy -after all they had left the band - and neither were original members. besides all parties had agreed not to use the name. going on to then try being "the sisters" (same thing innit? ) and failing legally on both counts should have been the end of it- it didn't need to get nasty and end in a public/financial humiliation at eldritch's hands. by the time husseys sleeping dogs wanted badly to roll-over and play dead it was too late: why should eldritch (publicly) end a feud which he'd already won in perpetuity and which presented him with amusing oppurtunies way to gloat, mock and generally remind wayne and anyone else who was best.
in the same way a five-year-old responds to a cruel but cever insult with "i know you are, you said you are" hussey gives it the "eldritch smells of wee" line while still being obviously in awe of him.

you give him way too much credit, at that time he was f**ked up on drugs, broken, ran away. The WEA lawyers' did the hardwork

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 14:17**

moses wrote:The above post seems to allude to some greater intelligence that Eldritch possesses, which baffles me as to why, if he's a cleaver fella, is he in a rock band.

Me too..

Also is AE a good lyricist or just a very lucky lyricist?

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 14:41**

you lot are f**king up any chance of this beer lark

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 15:16**

moses wrote:The above post seems to allude to some greater intelligence that Eldritch possesses, which baffles me as to why, if he's a cleaver fella, is he in a rock band.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't believe smart people are confined to writing abstruse papers that nobody reads in universities after all. Some smart people like sex. Most smart people don't have much time for the the 9-5 grind. Naturally, then, there are smart people in rock music.

I had presupposed people on here appreciate Eldritch's intelligence as evidenced by his lyrics though. I guess the distinguishing feature he possesses is knowledge though. Knowledge of the difference between good and bad writing, from a solid understanding of poetry, and a grounding in the modernist philosophy. It takes intelligence to apply this knowledge though I would argue. And then there's that mysterious artistic spark...

But then I suspect it's only people who have never written lyrics who think it is 'easy'. It's really not. One of the unfair things about writing is that it is only until you've tried yourself, immersed yourself IN it, you really begin to appreciate it. Also, because of Von's subtlety, the meaning isn't always ostensible as such, so it's only if you have that knowledge yourself you begin to 'get' it.

And yeah I could be more again specific if I used examples. But frankly I am not comfortable with posting a line-by-line analysis of 'Some Kind of Stranger' on here. I am much happier doing that lying next to my girlfriend on a Sunday morning. I am also perfectly aware that people are deeply suspicious of people who take these things too seriously. I happen to think this is the important bit though. Not what glasses he's wearing.

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 15:30**

Bravo the_inescapable_truth!

Intelligence isnâ€™t just knowledge, is mostly sensibility; Eldritch, has both. And, more than that, he has Vision! The blind cannot understand him.

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 16:07**

Gollum's Cock wrote:
moses wrote:The above post seems to allude to some greater intelligence that Eldritch possesses, which baffles me as to why, if he's a cleaver fella, is he in a rock band.
Me too..

hugh cornwell (stranglers) post-graduate biochemist
gibby haynes (butthole surfers) qualified accountant
eldritch (multi-linguist- 8ish foreign languages)
jaz coleman (killing joke) composer-in-residence to the european union; author of books on permaculture and enviromental sustainability; many "high-brow" strings to his bow....need i go on?

if people in rock bands are so thick it doesnt say much for the stupid cunts who follow their every move and think every time they fart it's a sign....then discus it with other "intellectuals" on the most retard-friendly medium known to man.

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 16:53**

the_inescapable_truth wrote:
And yeah I could be more again specific if I used examples. But frankly I am not comfortable with posting a line-by-line analysis of 'Some Kind of Stranger' on here. I am much happier doing that lying next to my girlfriend on a Sunday morning.

Do you post them on her? Doesn't that hurt? I guess some people are into that sort of thing.

As for the lyrics question, I have long thought, from what little acquaintance I have with Hussey's output, that Wayne writes garbage: there is a lot of quasi-symbolism that doesn't actually symbolize anything. I see the same thing in student writing: because they don't bother to read, they don't know how to write. Von, on the other hand, reads quite a bit, and that comes through in the use of imagery, metaphor, etc, etc, etc, in his writing.

And for the smart folks in bands question, I can think of the following:
1. Greg Graffin from Bad Religion has--I think--a doctorate in biology.
2. Dexter from the Offspring (yech, I know) is a doctoral candidate in molecular biology.
3. One of the guys from Jessica's Crime apparently holds a doctorate in something or other.
4. Conan O'Brien (ok, not a musician) did an MA in literature at Harvard, and wrote his thesis on Flannery O'Connor

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 17:09**

sultan2075 wrote: As for the lyrics question, I have long thought, from what little acquaintance I have with Hussey's output, that Wayne writes garbage: there is a lot of quasi-symbolism that doesn't actually symbolize anything.

or mean anything

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g45AZ5CwTU

08:09-08:23

Posted: **20 Mar 2009, 17:20**

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:
Gollum's Cock wrote:
moses wrote:The above post seems to allude to some greater intelligence that Eldritch possesses, which baffles me as to why, if he's a cleaver fella, is he in a rock band.
Me too..
if people in rock bands are so thick it doesnt say much for the stupid cunts who follow their every move and think every time they fart it's a sign....then discus it with other "intellectuals" on the most retard-friendly medium known to man.

I didn't say 'people in rock bands are so thick', but you are right about the rest of your statment.

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 03:50**

euphoria wrote:
sultan2075 wrote: As for the lyrics question, I have long thought, from what little acquaintance I have with Hussey's output, that Wayne writes garbage: there is a lot of quasi-symbolism that doesn't actually symbolize anything.
or mean anything

Does it necessarily need to? It's primarily an entertainment medium we're talking about. I'm not saying that it shouldn't mean anything but it really doesn't have to. After all, She Loves You isn't the most startlingly intellectual piece of writing but a fair few people seem to enjoy it.

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 04:26**

Emily wrote: He said things like "the Sisters are crap" and "he needs me more than I need him".

So what? It's business and I think both would be clever enough to leave behind such petty squabble. That's part of the job, after all, isn't it.

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 05:49**

stufarq wrote:Does it necessarily need to? It's primarily an entertainment medium we're talking about. I'm not saying that it shouldn't mean anything but it really doesn't have to. After all, She Loves You isn't the most startlingly intellectual piece of writing but a fair few people seem to enjoy it.

She Loves You may not be the pinnacle of lyrical achievement, but at least it makes (simple) sense. In Wayne's case, I often feel as if he's using words whose definition he isn't quite clear on, or concepts to which he hasn't given sufficient thought, or simply doesn't have the intellectual capacity to grasp in any but a very superficial manner. (I won't cast aspersions on the man's sincerity, as I have absolutely no way to ascertain it.)

His relative lack of ability to write a decent lyric has no bearing whatsoever on his ability to play a guitar or write music, both of which he's always done quite capably.

(I don't give a deep-fried rat's arsehole about personal vendettas, except insofar as it makes the creation of music rather difficult when all one's energies are being spent on lawsuits and/or public displays of vitriol. Which was rather the case for awhile there...)

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 08:36**

800mak wrote:Bravo the_inescapable_truth!

Intelligence isnâ€™t just knowledge, is mostly sensibility; Eldritch, has both. And, more than that, he has Vision! The blind cannot understand him.

You mean "You You You Could Be The One" being intelligent lyrics?

(just kidding)

Most of Sisters lyrics "seem" intelligent, but I guess "being vague" doesn't equal "being intelligent".

Women like vague men because they think they're intelligent, so what do men do: act vaguely in order to appear intelligent in order to get this certain lady into bed ... Nice theory, uh?

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 09:34**

Aye, let's gang up on Rosetta Stone fans

Q. How many Rosetta fans does it take to change a light bulb?

A. You're not allowed to change the light bulb, because you didn't see them in '89 and your not wearing an official Quarriers T-Shirt.

yeah, there's a whole bunch of these, but they were much funnier in the mid 90s

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 11:04**

moses wrote:The above post seems to allude to some greater intelligence that Eldritch possesses, which baffles me as to why, if he's a cleaver fella, is he in a rock band.

The result is an intelligent Rock'n'nRoll band. A good thing, innit?
Oh, and intelligent people, too, cherrish the occasional shag. Where do you get underwear thrown at you: In a translator's office or on stage?

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 14:20**

7anthea7 wrote:
stufarq wrote:(I don't give a deep-fried rat's arsehole about personal vendettas, except insofar as it makes the creation of music rather difficult when all one's energies are being spent on lawsuits and/or public displays of vitriol. Which was rather the case for awhile there...)
Whereas now it's just down to sheer laziness.

eotunun wrote: Where do you get underwear thrown at you: In a translator's office or on stage?
In the High Street of a Friday night. I wish they'd wash it first.

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 15:08**

7anthea7 wrote:(I don't give a deep-fried rat's arsehole about personal vendettas, except insofar as it makes the creation of music rather difficult when all one's energies are being spent on lawsuits and/or public displays of vitriol. Which was rather the case for awhile there...)

You should though- some of the best lyrics have come from such disagreements and I like a bit of venom with my rock music

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 19:31**

Oh dear..
Hussey and Eldritch together composed the best Sisters songs. Hussey writes iffy lyrics, Eldritch has a tin ear for guitars and thinks power chords are a good substitute for a catchy riff (the only decent post-Huss guitar riff I can think of he pinched from Stone Roses).
Eldritch may be smarter, but he's as charismatic as a wooden toilet-seat, Hussey is at least entertaining. Between them, The Sisters and m*****n make one really great band, as is, they make two pub bands I wouldn't pay to see anymore.

Posted: **21 Mar 2009, 20:01**

@ DeWinter.

Well said.

Hussey did (IMHO) make the Sisters complete in a way.
With him, they had the depth that they really needed to make songs work properly & let's not forget that when Gary Marx left, he still managed to pull off a show without the need for backing tapes etc.
So Ben & Chris can wield an axe, but that's about all they can do.
WH at least had some sort of creative value to add to the mix & if he joined forces with Von again, I, for one, would be most curious to see/ hear what became of it.
But I can't see it happening tbh.
Shame though.

Heartland

Hussey would like to work again with Eldritch