Heartland

nodubmanshouts wrote:You are confusing production and engineering with writing.

Nope. I think you don't know what a producer & top class engineer actually contributes to a record, otherwise why have them - it's not just twiddling with knobs, most bands are capable of twiddling their own knobs.

Yes, I do know.

However, in most cases, chopping up verses, re-arranging choruses, adding arrangements, creating a sound, and getting the best out of the musicians doesn't qualify as a writing credit...

nodubmanshouts wrote:Yes, I do know.

However, in most cases, chopping up verses, re-arranging choruses, adding arrangements, creating a sound, and getting the best out of the musicians doesn't qualify as a writing credit...

I would say it does and so do U2 as they have given Brian Eno and Daniel Lanois writing credit on their new album.
Anyway it's neither here no there, people are dying through starvation all over the world and writing or producing music doesn't change that.

nodubmanshouts wrote:Yes, I do know.

However, in most cases, chopping up verses, re-arranging choruses, adding arrangements, creating a sound, and getting the best out of the musicians doesn't qualify as a writing credit...

Depends. Steve Albini would likewise downplay the role of the "producer", whereas New Order have commonly given external producers (aside from Hannett) a co-writing credit.

mh wrote:

nodubmanshouts wrote:Yes, I do know.

However, in most cases, chopping up verses, re-arranging choruses, adding arrangements, creating a sound, and getting the best out of the musicians doesn't qualify as a writing credit...

Depends. Steve Albini would likewise downplay the role of the "producer", whereas New Order have commonly given external producers (aside from Hannett) a co-writing credit.

If a producer has done more than the usual by actually being included into the writing process, not just the arranging side of things, then it's up to the band/artist in question to decide whether they deserve a writing credit or not (which also means a potential share of royalties). Eldritch did that with Jim Steinman, giving him a writing credit on the lyrics for More.

moses wrote:

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:floodland was written -musically and lyrically- entirely by one man.

No Jim Steinman or Larry Alexander? Show me the label!

no need, i'm sure you own the record. it's there in black and white:
Floodand...Written by Andrew Eldritch.
the production credits include those you mention but production is part of the studio process; the songs were written before these people were brought in.

Production does an aweful lot for the sound of a record, but fundamentally its the songwriting that makes it. Thus, if you like Floodland, you have to credit Eldo as a songwriter.

For me, a nice way to single out the difference between production and song writing is to listen to a demo version of a song and then compare it to the final version.

Syberberg wrote: If a producer has done more than the usual by actually being included into the writing process, not just the arranging side of things, then it's up to the band/artist in question to decide whether they deserve a writing credit or not (which also means a potential share of royalties). Eldritch did that with Jim Steinman, giving him a writing credit on the lyrics for More.

On top of their working fee producers involved in the writing & arranging of tracks more often than not receive a 'points' percentage per record sold - akin to mechanical royalties - in leu of a writing credit to uphold the 'artists' credibility.

What Syberberg said.

As I said.... "in most cases". There are exceptions. Most U2 albums are not exceptions.

Anyway it's neither here no there, people are dying through starvation all over the world and writing or producing music doesn't change that.

moses, I suggest you learn to debate and state an argument, rather than use pathetic cop-outs.

nodubmanshouts wrote:
moses, I suggest you learn to debate and state an argument, rather than use pathetic cop-outs.

It wasnt a 'cop-out', pathetic or not , it was a statement of fact in order to express my boredom with a pointless debate that has nothing to do with the likelyhood of Hussey ever working again with Eldritch.

And as I have been fortunate enough over my life (through my dad) to have experienced at firrst hand the studio proccess of creating music at the very height of the profession and the politics and relationships therein, I know the score.

Check out the Hussey interview done by Janice Long on Disc 2 from the recently released The m*****n "Live&Last" DoCD, where Wayne says he is not opposed to working again with Eldritch, although he may mean something like doing only some nostalgia gig together or whatever.
"well never say never, but I can't personally see it"; "if I get the call..."
Andrew Eldritch will not agree.

moses wrote: it was a statement of fact in order to express my boredom with a pointless debate

if you think this debate is pointless you're going be unhappy here -we do "pointless" debates to death.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:

moses wrote: it was a statement of fact in order to express my boredom with a pointless debate

if you think this debate is pointless you're going be unhappy here -we do "pointless" debates to death.

Just wait until that new album comes out!

I am new here so forgive me if I am incorrect or repeating anything but......

The lyrics to More had to be pretty much re written by JS due to the original ones being open to liable action about whom they were written........

The only reason that Hussey would want to work again with AE is for money reasons?

Personally I hated The M*****n. At the time I was into the sisters I was about 15/16 when TM brought out Wasteland. I knew it was Hussey from the Sisters - but I didnt know about the feud or anything.

All I can remember thinking is OMG this is awful.

It was like Eurasure does The Sisters of Mercy. Terrible. Terrible. Yes, a lot of people liked it but I was NOT one of them!

He may be a good guitarist but the records that were done when he was with the Sisters were clearly 99% the others 1% Husseys influence.

And can any true Sisters fan really forgive him for trying to steal the name? and as for playing their songs live - WTF?

To continue the Eurasue theme (as thats all I can think of now as a similie) that is like Vince Clark leaving Depeche Mode, calling his new band Depeche and continuing to play Just Cant Get Enough!

BTW

Why am I "Road Kill"? Is this the bottom league Title?

Because I quite like Utterly Bastard Groovy!!

Debi wrote:Because I quite like Utterly Bastard Groovy!!

then you will have to post a whole lot more for that

standard ranks: (taken from the statistics page - http://www.myheartland.co.uk/statistics.php)

I wrote:Road Kill 0 - 99 posts
Amphetamine Filth 100 - 249 posts
Gonzoid Amphetamine Filth 250 - 499 posts
Utterly Bastard Groovy Amphetamine Filth 500 - 999 posts
Slight Overbomber 1000 - 1999 posts
Overbomber 2000 - 4999 posts
Underneath the Rock 5000 - 7499 posts
Above the Chemist 7500 - 14999 posts
Intellectual Love God 15000 - 14999 posts

there are also a few people who have custom/personal 'ranks' but you'd have to be a regular to warrant one of those

Thanks Main Man! I knew the facts must be around here somewhere but didn't know where!!

Debi wrote:Thanks Main Man! I knew the facts must be around here somewhere but didn't know where!!

no worries

Intellectual Love God 15000 - 14999 posts

Shurely shome mishtake?

"Intellectual Love God 15000 - 14999 posts"

yeah - whats the point in being intellectual or a love God if you've got no spare time cos you are glued to a forum!!!

well spotted!

its quirk of the way the stats page is displaying the ranks... there's actually no upper ceiling on that rank, thus:

Intellectual Love God 15000+

strange

Debi wrote:"Intellectual Love God 15000 - 14999 posts"

yeah - whats the point in being intellectual or a love God if you've got no spare time cos you are glued to a forum!!!

ooooh, controversial

well i beleive in speaking ones mind

and i've been here all of five minutes and not had a single clang with a saucepan for mentioning Eurasure : ) ha ha