Why can't we do this people?

[Prescott]

This is a large quote, directly from nin.com, but I believe you will all understand the relevance to the Sisters immediately.

Mr. Eldritch, would you help us help you? Imagine all of the people world-wide that would be more than willing to do the very same thing for The Sisters of Mercy as described below? Please think it over Mr. Eldritch. I believe it's brilliant.

" 1.5.10: NIN fans collaborate on massive free DVD/Blu-ray of "Lights In The Sky"

Our 2008 Lights In The Sky tour was an ambitious multimedia production on a scale well beyond anything we'd ever attempted before. Everyone involved was extremely proud of how it came together, and we were devastated when, for a variety of reasons, we were unable to capture it professionally for a theatrical or commercial release. As a "plan B" of sorts, early last year we released a massive 405gb free download of raw HD footage captured at three different shows during the tour. The idea was to get the footage out in the wild and see what our notoriously enterprising fans could do with it. There were no rules. No strings attached. This was a gift, and an experiment, and for the past year we've watched it come to life in more ways than we could have ever imagined.

Fans have edited thousands of videos from the footage, assembled their own DVDs and live albums, even held theatrical screenings of their creations. And now, the ambitious and well-organized group known as This One Is On Us have released their massive, highly-anticipated creation, Another Version of the Truth: The Gift.

For 12 months, a core team of dozens of fans and a network of thousands spanning the entire globe pooled their efforts to create this professional-quality 1080p 5.1 concert film, and have released it in every format from Blu-ray and DVD to iPod and YouTube. It combines footage from all three shows and includes DVD menus, bonus footage, a PDF booklet, and more. That something of this scale was produced entirely by fans, on their own time, purely for the sake of giving something back to the community, is absolutely unprecedented. You can read all about the project and find all the download links here, or watch it immediately on YouTube here. Theatrical screenings are already being organized, you can find more info about those here.

This is yet another example of a devoted fanbase and a policy of openness combining to fill in blanks left by old media barriers. The entire NIN camp is absolutely thrilled that treating our fans with respect and nurturing their creativity has led to such an overwhelming outpour of incredible content, and that we now have such a high quality souvenir from our most ambitious tour ever. Or, as Trent simply put it, "Nine Inch Nails fans kick ass." "

It's such an amazing thing to me that NIN fans were allowed to do this, given so much access and did such a remarkable job of it. I know Sisters fans could do the same and a whole lot more, given the access to clean audio and video. I really hope the man himself thinks this concept over, and says "Yes!"

[j3]

It would be an amazing thing indeed.

[Europa]

Always liked nin and Trent really seems like one of the few musicians trying to come up with a fair and workable business model since the advent of free downloading.

Can't remember what interview but sure Von has referenced the state of the record companies re downloads and how they ain't figured anything out. But surely it should also be for musicians to try and come up with a way especially if it allows them to work outside of record companies. Sure Chris said something in that youtube video about it too, and how they disagree on that point?

Sorry bit off topic of what you have said and I'm not a muscian so guess I don't understand the problems illegal downloads cause re finances.

[weebleswobble]

I've seen someone in the pit with a HD camera (Von's private footage?), but you are limited to a finite number of angles. The footage taken by fans goes from pretty good to f**king frightening.

It would imply an effort from , so no holding of breath people.

[Prescott]

The fans who organized this with consent of Trent and Co. have a dedicated site explaining everything where you can download the video in multiple formats here: http://thisoneisonus.org/node/34

Note the disclaimer concerning copyright, even though they had the band's permission and help.

Perhaps there are many parallels to this and the Sisters?

[stufarq]

Sorry bit off topic of what you have said and I'm not a muscian so guess I don't understand the problems illegal downloads cause re finances.

Depends on what the downloads are. Illegal downloading of commercially released material means that the musicians and everyone else involved (record company etc) don't get any money from something that was released in order to make money. It effectively deprives them of a living. (That's ignoring arguments about whether they're already so rich that they don't need the money but the counter argument is that you shouldn't steal from a rich person's house.)

Illegal downloading of material that hasn't been commercially released doesn't have a financial effect per se but it's still stealing someone's (intellectual) property without their permission. Strictly speaking, bootlegging and recording of concerts for personal use fall into that category but many performers nowadays turn a blind eye or are even actively supportive as long as the bootleggers aren't making money out of it by selling the boots rather than making them available for free.

The rise in downloading culture seems to have had a direct effect on both the habits of bootleggers (a much bigger emphasis on trading and less tolerance of selling) and on artists' attitudes towards them (more positive than they used to be because, as mentioned above, it's changed the nature of the industry). The Internet in general has resulted in lots of innovative marketing strategies such as the NIN one above, albums being financed by fans through presales, albums being made available for free or for however much fans choose to pay etc.

Sorry for the essay - just a topic that interests me.

[Prescott]

Loved your essay.

[lachert]

yes we can but von can not

[mh]

Or "will not", which may be a bit more like it.

We've been round this block (or variations on it) many times before. It's a cool idea for sure, but Von is still clinging to outmoded ideas about distribution and promotion. His story has consistently been "nothing until the industry sorts out the mess it's in", which indicates that his intent is to get in bed with the record industry again, presumably with the goal of putting the Sisters back to the stage they were at in the early 90s (or at least the mid 80s) - in mainstream commercial terms.

Alternative approaches either do not appeal to him or do not occur to him (or would involve far too much work for him to be bothered, particularly - as he's fond of saying - he doesn't have to do this).

[markfiend]

Given that Andrew has written what, ten songs in the last 17 years, why do any of us think that he's really that bothered with the Sisters at all any more? IMO it's little more than a hobby to him these days. Something to get him out of the house and an excuse to wander round the world every few years. If he was interested in releasing anything again, quite frankly he'd have done it by now.

Like mh says just there -- and if you forgive the mixed metaphor -- we've been around this block too many times to expect the cards to fall any differently.

[DocSommer]

To keep a long story short: I like the idea to leave the universe of "bad sounds and bad pictures" but I don't think that the NIN guys and have much in common when it comes to release quality stuff for free or working together with fans (allow them filming/working with soundboard/multitrack recordings). ....still like the idea though

[christophe]

great stuff!

though, it must be the bands idea. if the fans themselves (us) do something like that it is just stealing.
I don't know if Von really cares about it, though I suspect he is terrified by the idea. its what is holding him from releasing anything anyway I think, he does not have to because the show sell out anyway and we all know a new release would never even get close to the original records (sales, sound, quality)

I sometimes wonder what the reaction would be if we would ask VON if we could record a show.

[Bartek]

as we see Mr E. strictly don't give a a fork about his fans. of course they (we) making this live circus more sensible giving him money what help to pay salary his musicians and etc. and etc.

AE seems to not get in touch with reality, obviously he can has his own opinion about digital technology and he decide not join the crowd- artists that, like Trent, decide (realised ?) that making fans base a little community is a great deal, but is that rational ?

any how to much speculations to less 's statement about that, so far as i remember any of journalist didn't asked him about that.

[Being645]

I really like the idea. It's a great thing for those of us who have the means and the knowledge to get involved in such production - and for the rest of us as well, who can participate later in the - and I'm sure of this - wonderful results ...

Furthermore, IMHO, a thing as such had got nothing to do with any future, say official release along other distribution facilities ... because, however nice it were to have the so-called "new songs" properly recorded and released, it seems like quite a tedious job for :Von: to me. Too often played, too many varieties, too long gone the actual event, too much of digging into grounds too far away from one's current existence and so on ... I think, a piece of art can never be done for the records. It takes a motivation of sorts which can not be supplemented by whatever means and not as far as to the effect of rendering sufficient satisfaction with one's work. OK, it might be of a certain value to get long neglected things to an end ... however, a say, summary as proposed here, might - if one can take it, explicitly - eventually (oh yes, please), set an end to discussions and complaints about dearly missed releases and facilitate as much as support possible negotiations with record companies regarding the release of some unknown and really new material. In that case, many other questions occur including whether releasing more constitutes a real need and (consequently) will, and if so - an approriate and realistic time schedule in the long run. If this should be no option at all, we will be even more happy with a thing produced among us here. Thanks.

[_emma_]

why do any of us think that he's really that bothered with the Sisters at all any more? IMO it's little more than a hobby to him these days. Something to get him out of the house and an excuse to wander round the world every few years.

Sounds possible, but then again, if he weren't that bothered, he wouldn't be playing so many gigs. He could get out of the house and travel round the world without getting on stage. Well okay, playing gigs means making money. But then he has to pay the musicians, the staff, the crew, not to mention that travelling with the whole equipment and performing on stage almost every evening is much more exhausting than travelling lightly and for pure fun. So, he could make money on anything easier than that, and travel round the world for fun. So if The Sisters are just a hobby to him these days, it must be a hobby that he truly enjoys.
But why he can't be bothered to release anything new when there are so many people around eager and ready to minimize the effort for him as much as possible - this is still a mystery to me. I'm thinking and thinking and I just don't know.

[christophe]

I think in the end AE is The Sisters Of Mercy. and that sums it up quite good, he is the alpha and omega and we are just the crowd that shows up.

[Quiff Boy]

to be fair, nin probably have more fans, and more geekier fans - their music is inherently techie, and their fans tend ot be younger and have grown up with computers, digital audio & video editing etc

most sisters fans spent too long on the road, necking shed loads of drugs, to care about the ins and outs of adobe premier

whilst there are without doubt a handful of very capable & creative sisters fans out there who could contribute some great material given a chance, i doubt the sisters could crowd-source enough people of sufficient ability to have the same impact as nin fans have managed to have

it works for nin by sheer weight of numbers. the law of averages means that the more people they have, the more chance they have of getting some real quality in there.

[Back in time]

I think in the end AE is The Sisters Of Mercy. and that sums it up quite good, he is the alpha and omega and we are just the crowd that shows up.

OK, but no crowd no musician. You have to make music for somebody and not only for youself.

[Prescott]

I think in the end AE is The Sisters Of Mercy. and that sums it up quite good, he is the alpha and omega and we are just the crowd that shows up.

OK, but no crowd no musician. You have to make music for somebody and not only for youself.

Precisely. Although no one likes being told what they have to do, especially with their own art, it doesn't hurt to listen to suggestions either. It'd be nice if they weren't regarded as fatuous or cheap emotional blackmail also.

Recently someone told me that musicians becoming successful in any grass-roots way is BS and no one ever "makes it" without a label backing them. I know it sounds like something Von would say, but it's not him who said it.

My reply is: Really? Tell that to Ani Difranco and Righteous Babe Records. There was also this indie label I seem to recall that had a single or twoon the charts called Merciful Release.

[EvilBastard]

Recently someone told me that musicians becoming successful in any grass-roots way is BS and no one ever "makes it" without a label backing them. I know it sounds like something Von would say, but it's not him who said it.

Don't know who said it, but one could argue that TSOM had already "made it". Problem is the risk of "losing it" without label backing and financial support.
One work around could be start recording shows from the sounddesk and marketing them privately - so long as you start with high quality audio then having the stuff pressed professionally shouldn't be too much of a problem. I'm reasonably sure that most of us could happily do without a slickly-produced CD-inlay. So you press 1000 copies, probably costs no more than about $10,000 once you've bought the jewel cases, take advance orders to give you an idea of demand, sell them for $20 each, offer a limited number of signed and numbered disks for the Must Have crowd (let's say 100 of them at $50-100 each), and you've made a profit right there.
Market them via sites like Heartland (as some have already said, someone within Eldritch Boulevard knows we exist, and knows that we'll buy the stuff), set up a FaceBook group, keep the stock in a lock-up somewhere.
Let's face it - TSOM isn't getting new fans via the usual routes, label promotion and record store displays. The new fans come via word of mouth, friend-of-a-friend, viral. If they were a new band that hadn't "broken out" then I could see that without a label they're sunk before they start - but given the existing fanbase, and the alternative outlets available, the lack of privately-released material is a bit baffling.

Which brings us back to the original premise, that doesn't give two short ones about the fanbase. He tours when it suits him, hires the talent that he likes, and then goes back to breeding hybrid tulips or finishing his thesis on the impact of pumpernickel on medieval Westphalia or fostering shelter kittens, or whatever he does in the off-season. Which is fair enough.

[stufarq]

Loved your essay.

Thanks. I'll be lecturing at a university near you soon.

IMHO, a thing as such had got nothing to do with any future, say official release along other distribution facilities

I'd agree with that. This wouldn't really need to have anything to do with Von's ideas about promotion and distribution because it would be an officially sanctioned fan project rather than a commercial release. The question is whether Von is interested or cares.

So if The Sisters are just a hobby to him these days, it must be a hobby that he truly enjoys.
But why he can't be bothered to release anything new when there are so many people around eager and ready to minimize the effort for him as much as possible - this is still a mystery to me. (

Because they're two different things. At the end of the day he's still a musician and probably does genuinely enjoy playing live. He could be quite happy doing that while still having no interest in/a morbid fear of/a pathological hatred of going into the studio and/or releasing and promoting something. Or any of the other thousand and one suggestions we've made in countless other threads for the lack of product.

[million voices]

I don't know the man, I have never met the man. But IMHO I just think he does the touring for the money, there is nothing else. There is no pride, no new product to promote, no message to spread, no enjoyment to be had. There is no artist left, there is only a formula. The same old tired lines mumbled out again and again and again.
See you on the next tour.

[splintered thing]

This is a wonderful concept and Qb summed up some the core issues/differences on the fan side of the fence between TSOM & NIN ...I think.

Also - there is that loss of control factor I don't know if Von is ready to deal with. I don't know that realistically he wants us bringing up his children.

shame...

[lachert]

nin is just a thin fart compare to the sisterhood "gift" album

[Prescott]

I still think it's a lovely idea. We'll just have to see what the future brings.