Why can't we do this people?

[orchidzero]

Trent actually cares.
And Von could not give a f**k.

There you have it. As sad as it is.

This.

Von's washed up, lazy, and hopelessly devoted to a major label rock star paradigm he briefly tasted twenty years ago and has never been able to let go of, despite the fact it no longer exists.

[Prescott]

Been thinking about all of this far too much. Which it seems is the goal. "We will get inside your head, one way or another." - An old quote referring to the reasoning behind the Merciful Release logo using the anatomical guide to peeling away at a human head.

Then there is the name of the band. Now, 'sisters' are a type of sibling. When it comes to Von's love of philology, one could wonder if the siblings of 'mercy' itself are what are really being referred to here.

In which case, the first think that comes to mind speaking philologically that would by a sibling of a term/word, would be synonyms and antonyms. Let's take a look:

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/mercy

Now for brevity let's only use that one reference.

Main Entry: mercy
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: kindness, compassion
Synonyms:
benevolence, benignancy, blessing, boon, charity, clemency, commiseration, favor, forbearance, forgiveness, generosity, gentleness, godsend, goodwill, grace, humanity, kindliness, lenience, leniency, lenity, lifesaver, luck, mildness, pity, quarter, relief, ruth, softheartedness, sympathy, tenderness, tolerance

Antonyms:
cruelty, intolerance, meanness, uncompassion

I guess what I'm getting at here is that perhaps the antonyms are more likely being referred to over the synonyms.

"You are very bad people and must be punished"
- On Stage Comment

From the inlay to the 2006 re-issue of Vision Thing:

"Asked by Chris Roberts in Melody Maker in 1990, whether he was giving fans of The Sisters Of Mercy what they wanted, Andrew Eldritch replied: "Oh, I hadn't really thought about that. I've always taken the view that what I want to give them is what they need. What they want is neither here nor there. I know what's best."

Perhaps all it's ever been is a series a well crafted psychological games.

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

Especially:

Quote:

"Basic manipulative strategy of a psychopath

According to Hare and Babiak[4], psychopaths are always on the lookout for individuals to scam or swindle. The psychopathic approach includes three phases:
1: Assessment phase
Some psychopaths are opportunistic, aggressive predators who will take advantage of almost anyone they meet, while others are more patient, waiting for the perfect, innocent victim to cross their path. In each case, the psychopath is constantly sizing up the potential usefulness of an individual as a source of money, power, sex or influence. Some psychopaths enjoy a challenge while others prey on people who are vulnerable. During the assessment phase, the psychopath is able to determine a potential victim’s weak points and will use those weak points to seduce.
2: Manipulation phase
Once the psychopath has identified a victim, the manipulation phase begins. During the manipulation phase, a psychopath may create a persona or mask, specifically designed to ‘work’ for his or her target. A psychopath will lie to gain the trust of their victim. A psychopath’s lack of empathy and guilt allows them to lie with ease - they don’t see the value of telling the truth unless it will help get them what they want.
As interaction with the victim proceeds, the psychopath carefully assesses the victim's persona. The victim's persona gives the psychopath a picture of the traits and characteristics valued in the victim. The victim's persona may also reveal, to an astute observer, insecurities or weaknesses the victim wishes to minimize or hide from view. As an ardent student of human behavior, the psychopath will then gently test the inner strengths and needs that are part of the victim's private self and eventually build a personal relationship with the victim.
The persona of the psychopath - the “personality� the victim is bonding with - does not really exist. It was built on lies, carefully woven together to entrap the victim. It is a mask, one of many, custom-made by the psychopath to fit the victim's particular psychological needs and expectations. The victimization is predatory in nature; it often leads to severe financial, physical or emotional harm for the individual. Healthy, real relationships are built on mutual respect and trust; they are based on sharing honest thoughts and feelings. The mistaken belief that the psychopathic bond has any of these characteristics is the reason it is so successful.
3: Abandonment phase
The abandonment phase begins when the psychopath decides that their victim is no longer useful. They abandon their victim and move on to someone else. In the case of romantic relationships, a psychopath will usually seal a relationship with their next target before abandoning their current victim. Abandonment can happen quickly and can occur without the current victim knowing that the psychopath was looking for someone new. There will be no apologies for the hurt and pain they cause because psychopaths do not appreciate these emotions."

An interesting phrase that comes up time and again when researching psychopaths is "victim of circumstance", a mode they like to play with to garner sympathy.

Then of course there are the different phases the albums represent.

First and Last and Always: "Playing the victim"
Floodland: Introspective, yet entirely obsessed with sex, war and drugs.
Vision Thing: Elements of above yet now the full ego is in control, the victimization played previously reduced to "learning to cry for fun and profit", or "crocodile tears" another aspect of a psychopath.

In UTR #14, when discussing the lyrics of "Vision Thing" in response to a fan that objected to his use of the vernacular phrase "mother f**ker", he defended his usage by delving into and exposing the different perspectives that are represented in the structure of the lyrics. That there is a separate (or seemingly-so) narrator and author, and that they do not necessarily agree. Yet this use of masks and veiled structures to hide ones true intent or self is also a relevant technique.

This is most noticeable in the lyrics to a song like "Ribbons".

Then there have been other direct references to psychopathy in seemingly-barely related works by artists that should have little or nothing to do with the Sisters per se, any longer yet may or may not have had a serious link in the past.

To be "Without Conscience" is also a primary trait involved here for instance.

"Psychodalek" ( By: James Rays Gangwar) seems to be a play on all of these themes merely exposed in a more direct manner.

"Psychocult" (By: The Merry Thoughts) while lyrically relates to a group of people, "In the suburbs/in the towns/A psychozone/Where the saints/the unbelievers/found a home/And the love we give/Is more than you could bear/And the fever/And the fever/And the heat are there." It still firmly establishes the same sentiment that one party is give "love" that is more than the other party involved "could bear".

Although it could be argued that whether supposedly directly unrelated to the Sisters or not, the lyrics to "Psychocult" are pointing at us as a fan-base in particular.

Another possibility previously mentioned elsewhere on the forum, is Amphetamine Psychosis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine_psychosis

Although, one starts to wonder exactly how much of every activity mentioned in interviews in the past attributed to oneself were merely attempts at sounding cool, or explaining one's behavior with drugs and their effects rather than some other explanation.

The final possibility is that a cunning goal was to prove that people are naturally interested in psychopaths and that it would be an interesting literary device to write lyrics from that point of view and to portray oneself in that light to help the "suspension of disbelief" only seldom "breaking the fourth wall" and exposing one's true self through the lyrics or interviews when necessary shock value, as discussed in UTR#14, ask for it.

The Fourth Wall:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_fourth_wall

Maybe has something to do with the "Fourth Floor", another early play on words, perhaps.

All in all, very intriguing, which doesn't detract from A.E. being a very interesting singer/songwriter.

As to who he really is and what he's really all about, I think it's fair to say that he never wants any of us to know or to understand, in any conscious sort of way.

How about focussing on the synonyms of 'Mercy', for a change?

[Bartek]

sorry Sir, too much words.
how about long story short ?
btw. it's f**king Net, we can't read anymore, have you forgot about this ?!

[_emma_]

This.

Von's washed up, lazy, and hopelessly devoted to a major label rock star paradigm he briefly tasted twenty years ago and has never been able to let go of, despite the fact it no longer exists.

Wow, such powerful first post. You sound well informed. Are you Von's neighbour?

btw. it's f**king Net, we can't read anymore

[Being645]

Dear Prescott, as you mention UTR 14, let me refer you to the following pages which may or may not support your theories ...

http://www.myheartland.co.uk/gallery/de ... ge_id=1373
http://www.myheartland.co.uk/gallery/de ... ge_id=1374
http://www.myheartland.co.uk/gallery/de ... ge_id=1375
http://www.myheartland.co.uk/gallery/de ... ge_id=1376
http://www.myheartland.co.uk/gallery/de ... ge_id=1377



With regard to metafictional techniques (as is The Fourth Wall), I think this could be an aspect of interest ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distancing_effect

[Prescott]

Thank you Being645. I have read those pages and have already referred to them here:

http://www.thebrothersoftyranny.com/res ... evelopment

Which will be the place we will be dissecting the bands we like, beginning with The Sisters. Anyone interested in reading a lot of half-baked theories on song-writing techniques and other-such non-sense can go there. As this will also cut down on long posts here, which will save QB space and save Bartek any headaches.

[Being645]

... yes, such comprehensive posts could perhaps be hosted better at TBOT's
side, so many points at a time ... ... however, even when you locate
them there, you should at least take into accout, you might be talking about
a human being ...

And btw, there is, of course, Psychological Science and its definitions ... but
whose were the interests they've served all along the relatively short period
of their existence so far? What's the cultural basis on which they developed
and prevail? And who are they serving now? I think definitions like
"psychopath" extremely questionable ... even though there are plenty who
live to make other people suffer and with certain strategies, definitions and
stigmas ... and of course there is hate as much as profit of any kind ...

... I could go on like this with plenty more aspects, but I think it's more or
less pointless ...

[orchidzero]

Wow, such powerful first post. You sound well informed. Are you Von's neighbour?

Nice to meet you. Just cutting to the chase.

An officially sanctioned live document has always seemed like the best possible compromise. Fans get the new material in listenable quality, and Von's spared both a lot of hassle and the terrifying prospect of meeting PROPER NEW ALBUM expectations. I truly thought that Susanne clip on the website was the first step toward making it happen. But that was, what, 8 years ago?

I just don't see him getting the crowdsource religion, at this stage.

[davedecay]

TL;DR

[mh]

The more I think about this (which is not very often these days ) the more I'm starting to come round and see it from Von's perspective. The guy may be a stubborn old goat but one thing we should all have learned by now is that he ain't stupid.

Let's talk hypothetical. Say a new Sisters LP was 99% ready to go, say a deal was struck, say it was due to arrive in the shops next month.

What would happen?

First thing is that it would quite likely leak. Like a sieve. That somebody had used for machine-gun practice.

Second thing is that maybe one or two thousand loyal salivating HL members would troop off down to the shops and hand over their €17.99 or whatever. How much does a new CD cost these days anyway? I sure don't know anymore, and that's the third thing that would happen. Everyone else would just download it. Maybe a few would also buy it, but they would be a tiny minority. The cost of recording/etc doesn't get recouped, the band lose money, and OK it happens to everyone else but that still doesn't make it right or acceptable.

In short he would get screwed (and not in the nice way).

This is the mess that the industry is in, this is the mess that it's failing to find solutions to (making it more attractive to download illegally than to buy legally), and - yeah - back to the first point, I can kinda see it from Von's perspective more and more.

[lazarus corporation]

...Let's talk hypothetical. Say a new Sisters LP was 99% ready to go, say a deal was struck, say it was due to arrive in the shops next month.

What would happen?

First thing is that it would quite likely leak. Like a sieve. That somebody had used for machine-gun practice.

Second thing is that maybe one or two thousand loyal salivating HL members would troop off down to the shops and hand over their €17.99 or whatever...

Based on what I've read in some of the Trading posts on here, most of the forum members would pay out for the official CD version, and then 50% of them would also buy the limited edition version with extra tracks, the limited edition with free poster, the limited edition with postcards, and the limited edition with free yak.

[lachert]

you can't imagine how many sisters fans are not registered on this forum godzillions, or maybe more, and they'll buy original cd too.
and internet downloading is not only andrew's and metallica problem but still, many popular bands release albums against all odds

[stufarq]

Been thinking about all of this far too much.

Um, clearly.

the limited edition with free yak.

Definitely getting me one of those. And a second to keep in the shrinkwrap.

[lazarus corporation]

the limited edition with free yak.

Definitely getting me one of those. And a second to keep in the shrinkwrap.

Taylor probably already has the demo yak. Signed.

[Being645]

Post removed by moderator at Being645's request.

[Prescott]

... yes, such comprehensive posts could perhaps be hosted better at TBOT's
side, so many points at a time ... ... however, even when you locate
them there, you should at least take into accout, you might be talking about
a human being ...

And btw, there is, of course, Psychological Science and its definitions ... but
whose were the interests they've served all along the relatively short period
of their existence so far? What's the cultural basis on which they developed
and prevail? And who are they serving now? I think definitions like
"psychopath" extremely questionable ... even though there are plenty who
live to make other people suffer and with certain strategies, definitions and
stigmas ... and of course there is hate as much as profit of any kind ...

... I could go on like this with plenty more aspects, but I think it's more or
less pointless ...

I only wanted to hint at where my research is taking me, but allow me to clarify, as I do not wish to have words put in my mouth or for anyone, accidentally or not, to insinuate that I am calling anyone, esp. Eldritch, a psychopath. That is entirely wrong and not my intention at all.

What I'm pointing to is nothing new for an artist or musician to do: creating a persona (or two or three) for the sake of privacy and also for the sake of artistic license.

I was careful to point out what Eldritch said himself concerning the "narrator" and the "author" and especially in context to techniques like breaking the fourth wall.

Yet I am exploring the idea, that plenty of his work, at least lyrically, involves explorations of the truly psychotic and sociopathic. I am definitely not attributing these subjects to him personally merely because he explores them artistically.

I could have began my exposition and exploration into "What is the meaning and significance of The Sisters Of Mercy?" by re-stating Eldritch's claim that they almost named the band, "The Captains Of Industry", but it wasn't "as funny" as naming an all male band "The Sisters Of Mercy".

There have been many studies in psychology and sociology about the psychopathic tendencies of those in power; whether it be monarchial, religious, political, financial, military, etc.

I think the common theme in his lyrics is the exploration of power, how it corrupts, sickens, and eventually creates madmen out of seemingly normal individuals. "An animal deep inside" of everyone of us.

I think a clue is that the root of both Mercy and mercenary is the same "merx", I also think it's rather revealing that it was a term originally associated with "goods, rewards or commodities". Which of course would still be directly relevant in context to "The Captains Of Industry" as well.

I hope that clarifies, and that it peaks some interest.

Have you ever thought that maybe there is a lot to the persona of "Eldritch" that would never ever reflect Mr. Taylor? Perhaps to a certain degree even the drug references are not really out of as much direct experience as we have come to believe.

Finally, what's fascinating to me is that by creating a persona to sing through, he is testing us, to see if what we really want is "Eldritch", perhaps because a lot of people are afraid to expose and share their "Mr. Taylor" for fear that people wouldn't find him nearly as exciting or mysterious or "rock 'n' roll" enough.

I think the man is an unsung f**king genius, and by far not a bloody psychopath. That is all.

[Being645]

I see you, Prescott ... and I'm not blind enough not to notice your change of intention in execution ...
we live to learn, however, me included ... insofar, I do in fact appreciate your attempts for interpretation ...

and only in order to give you something in return ...
You seem to me quite in line with various psychological and sociological studies others might have availed themselves of likewise ... and to what effect? One can take things afterwards or at the same time to some artificial, artistic, philological or other level, or start there and do it the other way round ... but it doesn't change the, say empirical results ... and that's another reason why Vision Thing differs from Floodland, not to mention First And Last And Always ...

and anyway, we're in 2010 now, and this is all long ago, very long ago, last century ...

[spot778]

I think the crux here is simply ...

Is it worth 's while ?

We all know a product would sell but would the numbers match a tour ?

I suspect this is made harder by the fact the audience is a lot older and more "peerish" then singing to tweens these days. It would make me nervous too.

One might argue he already has the most definetive and documented networks out there that doesn't cost him a dime right here

An album would be a job not a labour of love and that job has a minimum salary requirement.

[Nadia81]

@ Prescott - I've done a lot of literary analysis/deconstruction and I enjoy it-it's fun and all that but as far as it being a good method of obtaining answers-I think deconstruction works better with things -engines -toasters-than poems.If Eldritch came out tomorrow and answered every single one of our questions-what use would it be - for him or us-anyway?

[Prescott]

@ Prescott - I've done a lot of literary analysis/deconstruction and I enjoy it-it's fun and all that but as far as it being a good method of obtaining answers-I think deconstruction works better with things -engines -toasters-than poems. If Eldritch came out tomorrow and answered every single one of our questions-what use would it be - for him or us-anyway?

Well if he did that, it might not be of any "use" [how utilitarian any how] to you, or someone else, yet again, that might be wonderful to other people. I guess you mean that, what if he came out and gave some definitive answers to what X, Y and Z songs or lyrics mean? That I doubt he'll ever do too thoroughly, yet he has already done so in the past to a degree, here and there. For the most part, I think he is equally interested in the subjective appraisals of all of his listeners.

Why do I say this? Well I'm sure we could all dig up some interview quote that would support this, but I think his favorite thinkers give us a better reason to think that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy ... ierkegaard

"One of Kierkegaard's recurrent themes is the importance of subjectivity, which has to do with the way people relate themselves to (objective) truths. In Concluding Unscientific Postscript to Philosophical Fragments, he argues that "subjectivity is truth" and "truth is subjectivity." What he means by this is that most essentially, truth is not just a matter of discovering objective facts. While objective facts are important, there is a second and more crucial element of truth, which involves how one relates oneself to those matters of fact. Since how one acts is, from the ethical perspective, more important than any matter of fact, truth is to be found in subjectivity rather than objectivity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Søren_Kierkegaard


"As part of his philosophical method, inspired by Socrates and the Socratic dialogues, Kierkegaard's early work was written under various pseudonymous characters who present their own distinctive viewpoints and interact with each other in complex dialogue.[7] He assigns pseudonyms to explore particular viewpoints in-depth, which may take up several books in some instances, and Kierkegaard, or another pseudonym, critiques that position. Thus, the task of discovering the meaning of his works is left to the reader, because "the task must be made difficult, for only the difficult inspires the noble-hearted"."

How many times has he told us that he "doesn't necessarily agree with what (he) thinks"?

This is all part of that process, for me, to relate fully in an authentic way to his work, I must take the journey of figuring out for myself, what it all means. The band's name, the lyrics, the imagery, the references, the allusions and the illusions. To me that's great fun and I get to learn new things in the process. Yet I admit, that although I am still (and will always be) ignorant of a great many things, I will also always enjoy learning new things.

I am not in any way shape or form, trying to establish the "canon", so to speak, but I definitely don't see why there is such a negative reaction to someone trying to share their subjective explorations of a band in a forum, and even more specifically, a sub-forum, dedicated to the discussion of that band?

Maybe some of you guys and gals are tired of this exploration, or don't find it enjoyable, or completely disagree with every idea I offer.

Perhaps it's just not that important to you? I don't know. Just trying to have a discussion about the meaning of my favorite band/musician/lyricist , on a level a little deeper than, let's say, what color socks he wore or whether or not he shaves his remaining hair off his head. Which is fine, of course, if that's what some one is interested in, I'm not though.

I think when he tells us things like "I consider myself Elvis meets Kierkegaard" he's giving us a very clear direction to go in, in order to understand what he's presenting as Andrew Eldritch, maybe his hints have gone ignored by the majority? Maybe this is "been there done that" for some? For me it's not. It's still a learning experience, yet that's part of who I am, to regard life as a series of Teachers.

[jost 7]

today i want the sisters to recruit a third musician, playing bass and other instruments on stage. that does not affect the (often inaudible) bass sounds by the doctor, it adds to it. and belly dancers.
andrew, boost the sisters!

things could be so easy

[Bartek]

so in the other words you want to pay much more to ticket ?

[weebleswobble]

today i want the sisters to recruit a third musician, playing bass and other instruments on stage. that does not affect the (often inaudible) bass sounds by the doctor, it adds to it. and belly dancers.
andrew, boost the sisters!

things could be so easy

and fireworks, and holograms, and.....

[Bartek]

and chocolate cake !

[jost 7]

today i want the sisters to recruit a third musician, playing bass and other instruments on stage. that does not affect the (often inaudible) bass sounds by the doctor, it adds to it. and belly dancers.
andrew, boost the sisters!

things could be so easy

and fireworks, and holograms, and.....

this goes exactly into the direction i was thinking of, but at first lets have the musical elements of the show backed (which could also mysteriously influence the developemt of tracks old and new). anyhow, for today i am happy with the bass player, and the belly dancers, and the chocolate, and the fireworks above.