Drug law argument. Here we go again...

[Erudite]

The issue, as I'm tired of stating, if one of supply and demand.
Forty plus years of attempting to choke off the supply has failed miserably while demand has steadily increased to the point were illegal drugs are cheaper and more widely available than ever before.
No one, however, seems to want to ask the question, let alone address the reason, why so many people want to get fucked in the first case i.e. social inequality, poor prospects, poverty etc.

The other thing people always shy away from is that unless you are physiologically and/or psychologically dependent, drugs are actually a lot of fun. Sorry, but it's true. They make you feel good, which is why so many people use them recreationally. In many cases, the attendant health issues are actually far less than those of alcohol or tobacco.

[markfiend]

Forty plus years of attempting to choke off the supply has failed miserably

Indeed. As I mentioned, it appears that about 1% of illegal drugs coming into the country are seized by Customs/Police.

Agree with the rest of your point; the "drugs are bad, m'kay?" brigade forget that intoxication is a core human desire coming only shortly behind shelter, food and sex.

[Maisey]

Indeed - it's thought that the event of agriculture was a evolutionary step based on a need to keep the beer flowing!

[markfiend]

Terrence McKenna (if memory serves) hypothesised that brewing was discovered in the first place when it was found that alcohol preserved, and increased the potency of, various hallucinogenic mushrooms!

[Maisey]

various hallucinogenic mushrooms

The foundation of most major religions I would've thought.

[DeWinter]

Terrence McKenna (if memory serves) hypothesised that brewing was discovered in the first place when it was found that alcohol preserved, and increased the potency of, various hallucinogenic mushrooms!

Bit more likely that people boiled water with various herbs and grains simply to render the water drinkable and storable. Alcoholic drinks were more of a happy accident.

One thing that occurred to me recently, my partner is a smoker, I've never been, but does it strike anyone else as peculiar that the government doesn't advise you to "smoke moderately", or put pictures of diseased livers, or battered wives on the sides of cans of lager?

[Francis]

Nicotine takes a bit of getting used to with no major high. But when you're in its grip, hard to kick. Not enough to mug your granny or sell your body though.

Alcohol comes easier with a good feeling, but the hangover tends to put you off it for a few days.

Heroin feels too good and hooks so quick. Don't want to see a time when my grandchildren are able to buy it at the local newsagents.

Get a f**king grip!

[sultan2075]

Nicotine takes a bit of getting used to with no major high. But when you're in its grip, hard to kick. Not enough to mug your granny or sell your body though.

I used to do two packs (of Marlboro reds) a day. Not unlike my old man. How did I quit? Three packs and a bottle of rotgut whiskey. I can't recommend it enough, if your'e trying to quit. The basic formula is this: smoke SOOOOOO much, and then smoke more. On top of that, drink enough that you will have the mother of all hangovers the next day. The combination of ridiculous amounts of nicotine plus a righteous hangover will cause even the thought of a cigarette to overcome you with violent nausea.

It works. It's really fun, up to a point. Then it's brutal. Brutal but effective.

[Francis]

That sounds like my average Friday night! But I'm usually back on the fags come Monday morning.

How about a more realistic, and not totally unrelated, legalisation issue: prostitution?

[markfiend]

The way women are trafficked into the country and forced into "sex slavery" is uncomfortably close to genuinely being slavery for my tastes.

Anyway, technically (correct me if I'm wrong) prostitution itself is legal in the UK, it's the related activities (soliciting, curb-crawling, living off immoral earnings) which are illegal.

[Eva]

The way women are trafficked into the country and forced into "sex slavery" is uncomfortably close to genuinely being slavery for my tastes.

It IS modern slavery. Period.

[Badlander]

Anyway, technically (correct me if I'm wrong) prostitution itself is legal in the UK, it's the related activities (soliciting, curb-crawling, living off immoral earnings) which are illegal.

Same in France. And that's what I'm very uncomfortable with : prostitution is legal, whereas activities related to prostitution aren't. In theory, these are two separate activities : prostitution on the one hand, all the rest on the other hand. But in reality, you can hardly ever find a situation where the two are actually separated. Prostitution nearly always comes with other illegal, immoral, degrading, disgusting, immoral, dangerous, etc. activities.
As you can see, I'm not a big fan of prostitution.
It's not just a moral stance (the selling of one's body), even though I think it's a very valid argument, it's a mere fact that prostitution is never clean and safe. Or maybe just for the client. But who cares about the girls ?

[markfiend]

The way women are trafficked into the country and forced into "sex slavery" is uncomfortably close to genuinely being slavery for my tastes.

It IS modern slavery. Period.

Well. Yes, actually, I agree.

[Badlander]

It IS modern slavery. Period.

Glad to see we agree.

[markfiend]

To be clear: I'm not quite sure why I wrote that sex slavery was "uncomfortably close to genuinely being" slavery. I can't see any way to distinguish it from (other forms of) slavery.

Slavery is (IMNSHO) the worst affront to human dignity that I can imagine. The idea that someone can be "owned", "bought" and "sold" is absolutely repellent.

[Eva]

To be clear: I'm not quite sure why I wrote that sex slavery was "uncomfortably close to genuinely being" slavery. I can't see any way to distinguish it from (other forms of) slavery.

Slavery is (IMNSHO) the worst affront to human dignity that I can imagine. The idea that someone can be "owned", "bought" and "sold" is absolutely repellent.

@Mark: Don't worry, I didn't think you were labelling women trafficking / sex slavery as a "lesser" form of slavery. From your former posts regarding drug prohibition vs. consumtion legalization I gathered that you think in a similar mindset as I do.

The reason why I made my statement so clear, is that I've recently seen a documentary dealing with this topic, and the women interviewed had been dragged to Switzerland of all places. So, to me it is not some anonymous "bad thing" happening far, far away anymore, it is something that takes place right behind my doorstep, a mere 2 minutes walk away. This closeness made it even more shocking for me. And the facts that were dealt with in this documentary are way beyond what evil I had ever been able to imagine... :-/

It's Cronenberg's "Eastern Promises" plus if you don't behave, you either get killed or end up in a brothel in Cyprus, where you'll never ever get out again, not even to buy clothes or for a meal. Everything is brought to the women. The only chance for them to get out is to slash their wrists, so if they're lucky (or rather, earn enough money for their "owners") they'll be taken to the hospital. Cyprus's government denies knowing of these brothels... And this is probably just one example. I don't doubt that there are more brothels like that in other, probably closer (nearer to where I live) places...


I post this horror, because I think if people know about these things, they might remember this when there's the next discusssion about immigrant laws etc. These women need protection in the countries they're being dragged to. Switzerland is still far away from such protection. Italy offers these women a permanent residence permit if they agree to be witnesses in such trials.


@Badlander: So am I.

[markfiend]

As it happens there has been a lot about trafficked women in the news in the UK recently too. The problem is compounded by the fact that, because the women are in the country illegally, they're treated as criminals themselves, rather than as the victims of a terrible crime.

[Badlander]

Actually, not many politicians are ready to take the defence of prostitutes. That's why the poor girls are very often depicted as criminals, rather than victims. Could it be that a large number of those politicians are regular clients themselves and so they're quite reluctant to put an end to a business they have an interest in ?

[Eva]

@Mark: Exactly the same situation as here in Switzerland, then.

@Badlander: Maybe some politicians are clients, but I think the main point is that immigrants don't have a lobby, and usually no money. Thus there's nobody willing to fight for them or change laws in their favour. You won't win an election with immigrants (as they don't have the right to vote), especially not with immigrant-friendly law. It is very easy (and often done in Switzerland) though to win an election with anti-immigrant (I'd call them xenophobic) laws. Prohibition of the construction/building of new minarets any one?

[DeWinter]

As it happens there has been a lot about trafficked women in the news in the UK recently too. The problem is compounded by the fact that, because the women are in the country illegally, they're treated as criminals themselves, rather than as the victims of a terrible crime.

Apparently, according to a Kosovan interpreter at my old place of work, the Albanians, who control some 75% of the UK's prostitution now, bring their countrywomen over here and keep them in line by threats of violent reprisals to their families back in Albania. So most of the poor women don't even try to leave. The UK does (or did back when I worked for the IAA) treat asylum claims by trafficked women pretty sympathetically.

[Badlander]

@Badlander: Maybe some politicians are clients, but I think the main point is that immigrants don't have a lobby, and usually no money. Thus there's nobody willing to fight for them or change laws in their favour. You won't win an election with immigrants (as they don't have the right to vote), especially not with immigrant-friendly law. It is very easy (and often done in Switzerland) though to win an election with anti-immigrant (I'd call them xenophobic) laws. Prohibition of the construction/building of new minarets any one?

Agreed, but I have a problem with prostitution even when it's not connected to illegal immigration and human trafficking. When I was I Amsterdam I never visited the red light district, but I did see some girls on display behind windows in Brussels. I found it totally disgusting and sick. I just don't believe in safe and healthy brothels.
It's also very true that illegal immigration makes it all the more problematic (a lot more actually).

[markfiend]

The UK does (or did back when I worked for the IAA) treat asylum claims by trafficked women pretty sympathetically.

While I suspect that's probably still the case, it's not something that the pimps and traffickers are likely to tell the women they "own"...

Badlander: I understand that a fairly high proportion of the women working in Amsterdam's red-light area are trafficked.

[DeWinter]

Badlander: I understand that a fairly high proportion of the women working in Amsterdam's red-light area are trafficked.

Something like three-quarters of women in Amsterdam's sex-industry are foreign, mostly without documents. Doesn't mean they're all being forced into it I suppose, but you're probably talking at least half of them, realistically.

Another example of the human factor mucking up what on paper seems a good and sensible idea?

[Badlander]

Badlander: I understand that a fairly high proportion of the women working in Amsterdam's red-light area are trafficked.

Similarly, around 1975-76, there was a fairly big prostitute demonstration in Lyon, France. At the time, the girls insisted they were totally independent from any kind of pimp. They said all they wanted to do was work in good conditions, wihtout being harassed by the police, etc. Some years later, one the leaders of the movement recognized that they had been manipulated by pimps.
That's the kind of stuff that makes me think there is no such thing as "good" and safe prostitution. It always come with a s**t load of problems, with the girls being the first victims. Some people decide to look the other way, that's all.

[Francis]

So would legally controlled brothels not lead to a safer environment for the women who work in the sex industry, whatever their reasons?